S&W revolver hitch

[Loosedhorse]

With all S&W revolvers, if you do an incomplete trigger reset you can obtain a condition where the revolver "locks up": the cylinder stop retracts incompletely, but the hand re-engages the cylinder ratchet on re-pull of the trigger. The cylinder can't rotate, and the trigger can't move.

Most of the time, you have to really work to have this happen: release the trigger just enough, and then pull.

Last week at the range, for the first time I had a just-acquired revolver do this repeatedly. Works fine with rapid trigger pulls unloaded, but when loaded and following a fired round, the cylinder would lock up about 1 out of four times.

Diagnostically, I then loaded an empty chamber ahead of two loaded ones. Frequently what I'd get was click-bang-lock (empty chamber, loaded chamber, cylinder locks and won't rotate past the just-fired chamber). Again, no real problem in dry-fire, and no lock with after the first trigger pull on an empty chamber: the recoil of a just-fired round seems to bring it out.

If it matters, the gun has another problem: light DA primer strikes with occasional misfires. Nice, solid strike in SA. DA strikes are always lighter with rare misfires in first trigger-pull, but strikes immediately after a fired round (in rapid DA, when the cylinder doesn't lock) are lighter still...and occasionally absent.

I would say that out of 50 rounds fired in attempted rapid-fire DA mode, I was able to get the gun to go "bang-bang" on two consecutive rounds exactly twice. In all other instances, the second round misfired, or didn't rotate into position.

With all Smith revolver triggers, there are three "clicks" to the trigger reset: if ypou pull immediately after the first, lock-up; if you pull after the second, cylinder rotates but hammer doesn't rise and fall; after the third, all is good. On an old 27-2, the clicks occur in rapid succession with very little trigger travel in between; on this new revolver, there's a significant distance between the first and second click.

So, questions: I'm not new to revolver shooting, but it seems I'm suddenly and with this gun specifically having trouble resetting the trigger properly after the gun fires (dry-firing is fine)--is that something that indicates a mechanical problem with the gun? Is the longer distance between the first and second reset clicks something that can be fixed?

Or is Smith just going to slap an "inspected" label on the gun and ship it back to me?

Moderators: feel free to move this thread if needed.

 

[MrBorland]

Are you sure the lockup is a reset issue? Are you able to fix the lockup by simply releasing the trigger fully before pulling again? Otherwise, it could be an ammo issue, or crud buildup in the cylinders (are you shooting .357mag?).

As far as the clicks on the return, they are the hand (1st click), cylinder stop (2nd) and sear (3rd) resetting. Pulling the trigger between the 1st & 2nd clicks will "lockup", since the hand is pushing the cylinder, but it can't advance because the stop hasn't been re-engaged by the trigger (Pulling before the 3rd click will also result in a short-stroke, as the cylinder turns, but the hammer doesn't rise).

Short-stroking becomes more common on revolvers with lightened actions, and it sounds like yours has a very light action (too light). Bona fide short stroking is a bad habit many people unknowingly have because they let the trigger push their finger fully forward, and lightening the action helps reveal the bad habit. So does rapid fire. Does the lockup seem more common during rapid fire? People seem to short-stroke more during live (rapid) fire, as they're likely not as relaxed.

Assuming it's not a user issue, it could simply be a matter of giving the innards of the gun a good cleaning. With such a light action, the rebound spring is undoubtedly light. A stronger rebound spring won't help the misfires, but it'll likely help the lockup. Short-stroking or not, it sounds like both the main and rebound spring need to be replaced with something with more oompf.

There can also be one of any number of little bitty things inside the action that's bend, peened, or otherwise out of spec. For now, I'd clean & lube it, swap in some stronger springs, and note whether it's related to rate of fire (i.e. technique). If you know another wheelgunner, have them shoot it as well to see if it's just you.

 

[Old Fuff]

1. If the trigger doesn't go all of the way forward after a shot, the cylinder stop is not drawn down so the ball (that part of the cylinder stop that goes up into the notch in the cylinder) doesn't release the cylinder and it remains locked. So long as it's in that condition the hammer and trigger won't move. A weak rebound slide spring can also be part of this picture.

2. Light double-action hammer strikes are usually caused by a lighter after-market main spring, or a shortened mainspring tension screw.

You said that the revolver in question is "new." Are you sure that someone hasn't been inside of it and attempted to improve the trigger pull? Everything you have described suggests that this what's causing the problems.

Check to be sure that the mainspring tension screw is tight (if there is one, you didn't mention the model), and that no one has done any aftermarket work on it. If they haven't it should go back to S&W, but if it's been tampered with don't expect a free warrantee repair.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Somehow, Old Fuff, I knew you'd come through. It is brand-new, I'm the first owner. I'll take off the grip and double check the tension screw.

Are you able to fix the lockup by simply releasing the trigger fully before pulling again?

Yes.

Does the lockup seem more common during rapid fire?

Only during rapid fire, and only after a round has fired; not with rapid dry-fire.

I don't disagree that I'm short-stroking the trigger. But it seems to be only with this revolver, so I'm wondering if it is particularly easy to short-stroke, and whether there is a fix to get it to the level of my other revolvers.

Short-stroking or not, it sounds like both the main and rebound spring need to be replaced with something with more oompf.

If you know another wheelgunner, have them shoot it as well to see if it's just you.

Both helpful ideas. Thanks, MrBorland.

 

[MrBorland]

Are you sure that someone hasn't been inside of it and attempted to improve the trigger pull?

If it was worked on (very likely), it's not a given that it was a hack job. It may represent some excellent work, but tuned for a specific purpose (action shooting, PPC, bullseye, etc). Whatever the purpose, the user very likely handloaded, using hand seated Federal primers. Or maybe he didn't reload and sold when it didn't go bang.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Again, as far as I can tell it's brand new from the factory.


Still wondering about that longer distance between the first and second trigger reset clicks, though. Unlikely to be from loose springs. Like you said, maybe something out of spec...

 

[MrBorland]

It is brand-new, I'm the first owner. I'll take off the grip and double check the tension screw.

It's brand new?! Now this is a twist. Do you know anyone with a trigger pull gauge? The DA pull ought to be 10-11lbs, IIRC. How's the DA pull weight feel, compared to your other guns? Noticeably lighter?

Take a look at the hammer - does it look pretty centered between the sides of the frame? Are there wear marks on one side? Could be it's off to the side and needs to be shimmed. Or the stud is bent, and the hammer's not lined up properly. Either way, some friction may be robbing the hammer of some oompf. Take a look at the trigger, too. If it's not centered, or the stud's bent, it could be contributing to the short-stroke.

BTW, what grips are on the gun? If they're rubber with a side-mounted screw, the problem might be as easy as backing that screw off a bit. If it's tightened too much, it can start to pinch the mainspring, robbing the hammer of some power. And since the rebound slide has to work against this as well, it might be contributing to the short-stroke.

Edit:

Still wondering about that longer distance between the first and second trigger reset clicks, though. Unlikely to be from loose springs. Like you said, maybe something out of spec...

Dunno. Could be the result of some redesigning of the innards since your 27 was made. My newer guns have a long-ish distance between the 1st 2 clicks. But I don't think it's all that important, since you have to get to the 3rd click to avoid a short-stroke anyway, and the 3rd click happens nearly at the end of the return.

 

[huntershooter]

Check extractor rod length.
I had a new 625 MG that would seize as you describe. I finally detail stripped and discovered the rod was several thous. short.
It was sent to S&W-they replaced the ext. rod. Works fine now.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Standard Hogue (yeck!) rubber grips, bottom screw, exposed back strap. As far as I can see, the hammer is centered without rub.

Thanks for the info about the second click on the newer revolvers.

Good job finding the short extractor rod! As its still under warranty I'm going to avoid taking it apart, but I'll mention the possibility in the "helpful letter" I enclose with the gun.



Guys, I do appreciate the comments as to possibilities. I'll also double check yours truly by taking a different Smith out soon, and see if I flub that one in rapid DA with stout loads.

 

[Jim K]

Ohoh! I think a couple of words just went past the old eyeballs - "stout loads." Also, no one mentioned the caliber. Big guns with heavy loads can have problems due to the effect of recoil on some parts, notably the cylinder stop. I don't recall that particular problem, but if it occurs only with stout loads (handloads?) and not with lighter loads or factory loads, that might point to a solution.

Jim

 

[Loosedhorse]

Well, it's off to S&W--they set me a shipping label, very easy. I'll update when I can.

 

[Loosedhorse]

The springs are the only thing they didn't replace!

Just returned: new strain screw, new firing pin, and new sear!

I'll range test it when I can.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Tested. Completely fixed--no more misfires or lock-ups due to failure to have the trigger reset fully.

I'm left to puzzle about what the problem was.

 

[Walkalong]

The springs are the only thing they didn't replace!

Just returned: new strain screw,

The strain screw tensions the hammer spring properly. If backed out or shortened, it can cause problems.

 

[Old Fuff]

As the trigger returns forward it rubs against the face of the sear, which is part of the reason it's a lever, so the trigger can push it backwards. If the sear was sticking, or for some other reason it wouldn't move, the trigger couldn't reset. The reason for the light double-action hits is obviously a shortened strain screw.

Either someone is handing you a line about the "newness" of this gun, or the factory's assemblers and inspectors need some remedial training.

 

[Loosedhorse]

I appreciate the education, guys! Oh, now that all's said and done, I can reveal the mystery:

The new revolver is...a Governor. Well, we all have our blind spots!