S&W Tactical range report and ?

Status
Not open for further replies.
S

sigma 40ve

Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2004
Messages
429
Location
sw ohio
Took my S&W Tac to the range finally today. I have had it since Nov 06 and never shot it. This is my first AR also. I took WWB and some Wolf/Prvi. All of the Winchester ran fine, the Wolf short stroked each round. I also noticed that the Wolf ejected about 3 feet, while the Winchester ejected about 8 feet.

I did oil it before going to the range. When I got home I took out the bolt and noticed that 2 of the rings had their spaces lined up. I spaced the rings about 120 degrees apart as per a thread I have since read. I will be back to the range later this week to see if that is why the Wolf short stroked. Just curious, has anyone else had problems out of the Wolf/Prvi ammo?
 
Great choice for the AR platform. I almost picked one up last fall too. I run wolf through my Colt SP-1, and three differently configured Bushmasters, 1 being a 10.5" SBR with out any problems. I just picked up a couple of more cases as .223 ammo is getting very very pricy.

RE-post now that you've spaced the rings and check the wolf again...just curious though, was it wolf gold, or enamaled steel? One is copper washed steel, and the other is painted steel. I have heard stories that with a heated barrel the emamel can become tacky and be a bit harder to extract. If you ran the winchester first and had a heated barrel perhaps this would explain the difference in distance from extracted cases, although I thought this only came up with full auto fire as it takes a lot to heat the chamber that much. Did the brass have any unusual marks on the neck or shoulder?

mk
 
It is the brass cased Wolf/Prvi Parti that was short stroking. I will try the S&W again this week with Remington, some Guatemalan surplus, and another lot# of the Wolf Prvi Parti stuff just to see what is the problem, if it is ammo related.
 
The gas ring alignment is not your culprit....that's largely a myth about the spacing causing gas issues. I've lined them up on purpose and fired woefully underpowered reloads to TRY to get it to screw up...with no success.

Check the carrier key, and the tightness of the bolts that hold it on. They should be staked properly. More times than not, that's where the short-stroking comes in to play.

As for the wolf steel cased, you'd be hard pressed to even FIND lacquer coated stuff anymore, and the poly coated variety certainly won't melt in a chamber. It will stick in dirty chambers tho, or rough chambers so you need to keep the gun slightly cleaner than brass (this is due to steel not expanding fully or fast enough and letting blow by foul the chamber more than brass ammo). But, a decent AR should shoot poly Wolf with no problems whatsoever. I don't own an AR that won't shoot it all day long.
 
Just got back from the range. Wolf and the Guat surp both short stroke. Remington and WWB feed fine. I have noticed the Wolf and Guat have alot softer recoil and less "bang/sound" than the WWB and Remington.

Do I just say the hell with it and just shoot WWB and Remington? I personally don't like the fact of having a picky rifle.

I also took off my handguard again, is there anyway to make sure the gas hole and the block exactly line up? Please excuse this question but I am new to the AR platform. In my "logic" I wonder if the holes line up all the way.
 
Makes sense to stagger the gaps on your gas rings. Carrier key must also be staked. If it loosens, it can batter you gas tube.

Good Luck and enjoy your new rifle!
 
Did you check the carrier key? Is it staked and solid? Are the bolts tight?

Also, when it's short-stroking, is it locking back on the last round?

About the rings, again, alignment doesn't mean SQUAT but they can be bad....if the bolt moves freely (or drops out) of the carrier under its own weight the rings need replaced. If it's not the rings, and not the key, then it could be other gas issues.

Is the gas tube straight? Is the end bent or otherwise damaged? Look around the front sight base for carbon blow-by (rare). If all that is in order, it's probably that the gas port is undersized. It's the VERY last thing to check, because you can't make it smaller if you open it up, but for that I'd be calling Smith. The rifle should shoot ALL the ammo you've mentioned with no problems at all. S&W has superb CS, rely on it and use it. They'll make the gun right.
 
Yes the key is staked and solid. No, it does not hold open on last rd. The gas block looked somewhat "canted", I loosened the 2 set screws and straightened it up. I will get back to the range in a couple of days to see if that was the culprit.
 
Remington and WWB feed fine. I have noticed the Wolf and Guat have alot softer recoil and less "bang/sound" than the WWB and Remington.
Click to expand...
That's weird. Guat being 5.56 milsurp should be hotter than Rem and Winnie 223. Of course you could have a bad batch, but that doesn't explain the Wolf.

I wonder if it's a chamber issue. Isn't the Prvi Wolf M193 5.56 spec also? Perhaps S&W screwed up and gave you something closer to .223 chamber dimensions instead of the 5.56 chamber you should have. Or it could just be a rough chamber hanging the hotter 5.56 rounds. If the brass is sticking in the chamber, that could account for the diminished sound also.

Do I just say the hell with it and just shoot WWB and Remington? I personally don't like the fact of having a picky rifle.
Click to expand...
Definitely not! You bought a very expensive rifle from a top shelf brand. These are supposed to be serious duty carbines; it should work with just about any decent ammo you run through it. I have mixmasters I built in my garage that run better than that. I'd take advantage of that warranty you paid for, send it back to S&W, and tell them not to send it back until it runs through 5.56 like an old school Singer sewing machine.

The gas ring alignment is not your culprit....that's largely a myth about the spacing causing gas issues.
Click to expand...
I agree. Think about the gas pressure and speed involved here. That little gap isn't going to allow any significant gas past in the time it takes for the bolt and carrier to slam back.
 
You would be wise to stagger the gas rings!

What caliber is the rifle? 5.56mm or .223? What cal was your ammo?
 
Before you go messing around too much I would definitely let S&W take care of it. I hear they have excellent warranty service.
 
You would be wise to stagger the gas rings!
Click to expand...

FOR THE LAST TIME, THIS MAKES NO DIFFERENCE!!!!! AT ALL!!!!!!

Don't believe me? Take your functioning AR-15, take the bolt out, line up the rings so that the rings form a perfect gap between all three, and reassemble. Then, shoot it. See if you can make it short stroke.

I've done it. I've done it with underloaded handloads, with Wolf steel case, you name it. Never short stroked, not once, with any AR I own.

Now stop with that nonsense, it's not an issue.
 
What does it hurt to have the gaps staggered? Are you a trained armorer?
Click to expand...

It doesn't hurt anything, but it also will NOT, REPEAT, NOT cause an otherwise properly functioning AR to suddenly choke. And, it's looking for something as a cause of failure that isn't the cause of anyone's problems.

If you can find a trained armorer that can substantiate with any evidence whatsoever that it does have an affect on a running AR, then come back to me with your insults and I'll gladly admit I know nothing. Like I said, take your AR (if it runs worth a damn), line up the rings, and shoot it. If it goes bang and locks that mag back. Try it. Please.

The rings move around during firing. Occasionally, as physics and chance would have it, they move into alignment. I'll give you two guesses why you never noticed this occurrence while shooting. (hint: you gun didn't short stroke)
 
What does it hurt to have the gaps staggered? Are you a trained armorer?

It doesn't hurt anything, but it also will NOT, REPEAT, NOT cause an otherwise properly functioning AR to suddenly choke. And, it's looking for something as a cause of failure that isn't the cause of anyone's problems.
Click to expand...

I agree. Whether the gas rings are staggered or not will have no effect on the reliability of an otherwise properly assembled AR.

vanfunk
 
Ive my dept. armorer tell me that the alignment didnt mean squat if that helps. I too have aligned the rings to have the same gap with no malfunctions what so ever.
 
Staggering the gas rings is meaningless. First of all, it serves no useful purpose on a properly functioning AR. Second, the rings continually rotate - so even if they are staggered when you put the bolt in, they will be in a new position after the first shot.

You can take a properly functioning AR and remove two of the three gas rings and it will still run just fine. If your AR requires the gas rings to be staggered in order to run, then you already have serious function issues and you would be better off addressing those issues than trying to unalign the gas rings after every shot.

As for this particular AR, Guat is generally very stout stuff, and the Wolf/Privi stuff is loaded hot as well. The fact that your rifle runs well with lower pressure .223 ammo like Remington and WWB; but short strokes with higher pressure 5.56mm ammo like Wolf/Privi and Guat makes me think they used a .223 chamber on the rifle instead of a 5.56 chamber.

We can probably help you troubleshoot it if you want to do it yourself; but it could take awhile. I would send it back to who you bought it from, explain the problem and let them fix it.
 
Well gents,

Just curious why they include that info and direction in the tech manual?
 
They probably just copied the military manuals - which also have the same erroneous information in them. However, it simply is not true and you can easily verify it for yourself.

Remove two of your gas rings and see if the rifle continues to function. You can also stagger your gas rings and then open the rifle back up after every shot to see if they stay in the same position. You'll find out pretty quick that regardless of how the information made it into the manual, it isn't correct.
 
FWIW, I hate to see that my thread started a pissing match among members. All I wanted was some help trying to figure out what was going on with my AR. I do appreciate ALL those that did post replies so far.

I did call S&W today. Talked to the AR person. Nice guy. From what I gather from him I might have way too much lube on mine. I am going back to the range Saturday, after I have cleaned it and oiled it to his recomendations. I will post results Saturday night. If it does not work Saturday, I have a return label coming from S&W for it. Either way, I am sure that it will ultimately start running properly. I do know that S&W stands behind their products from experience.
 
Sigma,

I apologize for intruding in your thread. Let me just say I have worked on the AR15 for the past 12 years, and I have seen the bolt ring issue cause problems. The manuals say to keep them staggered. I did not say that was the cause of your particular problem, however, it doesn't take much to align the rings. I'm a fan of following manufacturers directions, 'cause most of them know what they are talking about. Maybe the other fellas who say it doesn't matter, have more experience than me. You do what you think is best.

As to your S&W, I've heard nothing but good things about them so I think you'll be taken care of in short order so you can enjoy your new rifle.

Good luck
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

T
  • Locked
M-39 Range Report
Replies
2
Views
385
Soldiersurfs
S
D
  • Locked
Del-Ton A2 Upper Problems
Replies
5
Views
748
dispatch55126
D
M
  • Locked
Update on Smith and Wesson M&P 15
Replies
2
Views
616
Bartholomew Roberts
B
H
  • Locked
SU-16B range report
Replies
11
Views
936
Harry Paget Flashman
H
T
  • Locked
Bushmaster XM15 range report
Replies
10
Views
1K
Frog48
F
Back
Top