(SA) Stripping police of their guns ‘out of question’

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Drizzt

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Stripping police of their guns ‘out of question’

By Derrick Spies Safety and Security Reporter

STRIPPING police and security guards of their guns because of the high number of private shooting incidents involving official firearms is “out of the question”, say the police and security industries.

This follows a judgment by Cape High Court Judge Deon van Zyl on Tuesday in which he said the security industry and police should think about taking away firearms from their members as they were too often used to fight personal “wars”.

Van Zyl was speaking during the sentencing of Zamuxolo Dlakavu, a former ADT security guard, who pleaded guilty to murdering his wife, claimed culpability for the death of her aunt and pleaded not guilty to two attempted murders relating to their relatives in Heinz Park, Mitchell’s Plain, in April, 2004.

Eastern Cape provincial police spokesman Marinda Mills said removing a policeman’s firearm while expecting them to perform their day-to-day duties was “out of the question”.

“One must remember that a police member has an ethical and social obligation to respond to a person in distress, and as such is technically on call 24 hours a day,” she said.

Mills said police officers’ work also automatically placed them in a higher risk category.

However, it was not a blanket policy to allow police officials to take their firearms home. An application had to be submitted and certain criteria had to be met.

Atlas spokesman and former SAPS operational services provincial head John Best said it would be unfair to expect people to respond to an armed robbery without being armed themselves. “If anything, we are seeing a reversal of this. Even British police are now armed because of more brazen criminal elements,” he said.

There have been a number of recent shooting incidents in the Eastern Cape where police and security guards have used their official firearms against other people in their personal capacity.

These include a shoot-out between two police detectives from Humewood police station in Mthatha during the local government elections earlier this year. Last month, a policeman at the Mount Road police station committed suicide with his firearm.

In November last year, Inspector Werner O’Linsky, who was stationed at Rocklands police station, charged into the Kabega Park police station and opened fire on his colleagues.

Owen Maarten, a Coin security guard, shot his wife Rezaka, then turned the gun on himself in the middle of Makro last September.

In Kimberley yesterday, the persistent crying of a five-month-old baby led to the discovery of the bodies of a Northern Cape policeman and his wife, apparently the victims of a family murder, police said.

The bodies of Constable Bevan Meels, 42, and his wife Elize, 39, were discovered in the bedroom of their house on Tuesday, with gunshot wounds to the head. The baby was found alive in the man’s arms and his service pistol was on the scene.

http://www.theherald.co.za/herald/news/n05_20042006.htm
 
We've had at least 2 shootings with duty weapons in the VI for this year. If anything the cops arnt exempt from commiting crimes or having unfortunate incidents.

I just find it curious that when the plot for removing civilian weapons is on the table, few departments would ever say that it was not out of the question. Now that removing civilian police weapons is in the works, they have the world of objections?
 
There is a place in your profile with a field labeled "Location." Why dont you fill it out so we dont have to guess where VI is?

Incidentally, the objections the police raise are always the same objections the civilians raise.
 
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If you can figure out where the VI is, Ill give you a cookie (when you buy something it pays to know where you left it :p)

Its not just cops with the "its ok so long as it dosnt affect me" attitude that bug me. I guess they just make easier targets to vent on.
You'd think someone who depends on a firearm would understand the concerns other citizens walking the same streets.
 
beerslurpy, step away from the caffiene!

My first guess was Virgin Islands, but if you don't know where VI is, why
not just ask??
You don't need to be a genius to be polite.
 
since the news article talks about the Cape and comes from the .za domain, I'm going to guess this is South Africa.
as far as VI, I'm going to guess that means Virgin Islands.

to be on-topic, I don't see why removing police guns is such a problem. Cops in England have managed without them for years. :neener:
No, I'm not being entirely serious, but I do feel that the police have lost some of their reluctance to go to the gun over the years. My grandfather did 25 years with the LAPD (1949-1974) and never had to draw his sidearm in anger. He was there during the Watts riots and also walked...yes walked...a foot beat. He was a true Peace Officer. Today, cops seem more like officers of a police state.
 
As for police and firearms, my idea for "stripping of guns" is that if a cop or agent has an ND while on duty or demonstration, (as in, mister Glock Fo-Tay DEA in the classroom), that their weapon be withdrawn and replaced with something with a mechanical safety and heavier trigger (or revolver) until they PROVE in tested qualification that they can draw, holster and handle a trigger-safety-only pistol without touching the trigger. Or, if they have Glocks, force them to carry one with the retrofit mechanical safety from then on. Do it again, relegated to a desk job.

Could help prevent things like the "ND" right into the head of an unarmed optometrist being arrested for being a bookie...

As for those two cops who shot up a house while shooting at each other, if they weren't outright fired, I'd not let them carry anything more than a taser.
 
Well I only had one cookie so Gunsmith and Clean will have to share it :uhoh:

I think even when a cop has an ND, there should be a similar approach to what happens with any civilian.
If the law lets us explain it off as an accident, they should have a similar chance. If the law would strip us of our weapons rights for this, then it should strip them of their gun (and if they dont feel comfortable or the weapon was considered part of their employment, thats just too bad).

Yes cops have greater responsobility but the law should apply equally to them with no "peace officer" exemptions for purchase, carry, shootings, accidents, or criminal misuse.
Thats one thing I cant fault the UK for. When they said no guns, they took em away from almost everyone (I would have disarmed all the political bodyguards too, but thats me :rolleyes: ).

What Rasta-narc did in that classroom was pretty brainless, but that didnt disturb me as much as the thought of what would happen if a civilian demonstrating weapons in a classroom made the same mistake.
 
Sorry for my rudeness, but I still think that it would be nice if people didnt assume that the appreviation for their little patch of earth are universally known.

One must remember that a police member has an ethical and social obligation to respond to a person in distress

But not a legal one.

Yeah, would hate for it to seem like a real obligation rather than an excuse for a grant of privilege.
 
I feel that the police should be held to the same or higher standards as citizens/civilians. The police are trained and if a civilian is as trained as the cop then I do not feel that they should disarm anyone. Rasta-Narc (I love that!) should be disarmed and sent back to remedial training. He is apparnently the only person NOT qualified in this room, that I know of, to carry a Glock .40.

I just feel that they should be better than the average civilian as they are charged with protecting us and are immune to any sort of liability when they screw up. The dentist/bookie incident is a perfect example. We have to start calling for more police accountability! Yes the man was a criminal (I disagree with the law but the law is the law until we change it!) however did he deserve to die for being a bookie? I do not think he did, and I really hope that others on this board do not either.
 
Ridged screening of applicants and training should place this problem in the minority of incidents. Remember that it only takes 1 rotten apple to spoil the barrel.

In the military we use to spend most of our time on the 10% who do not want to go along with the program. THESE are the people who will pull a unit down and give it a bad name.

The other 90% were busting there buns and doing their job, but no the 10% got the attention.

This is true in civilian life, there are some who squeeze through the cracks and make it bad for the majority wh are trying to uphold their oath.

Oh, I am talking about "peace officers", not "law enforcement officers".
 
Anyone who has been to SA knows, going around town (esp. in JB) without a gun is madness. Even with a gun it isn't safe.

That said, if the people don't need guns, the cops don't need them either.
 
STRIPPING police and security guards of their guns because of the high number of private shooting incidents involving official firearms...
Hey! They be onto something here; placing all police and corporate security in the same catagory as convicted felons? I might go for that :D

Naaaah .. get them all off those prescription psychotropic drugs and see if that doesn't help any. ;)

Create the problem, wait for the reaction - then push the solution. I see the manifestation of a familar m.o. again.

---------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
 
I agree with beerslurpy. I see people without a location in their profile refer to their location or general area all the time on this site. It is kind of frustrating to read that and not even know what state they in. This is especially frustrating when people ask legal questions. Is it so hard to put your state in your profile? Big Brother already knows who you are and where you live. :)
 
ElTacoGrande said:
Anyone who has been to SA knows, going around town (esp. in JB) without a gun is madness. Even with a gun it isn't safe.
Johannesburg, yeah...and don't forget a 6 ft wall with broken glass or razor wire, burglar-bars on every window and security-gates on the doors, and armed-response companies, and dogs...the talk around the weekend braais (barbeques) revolve around who's been hijacked by AK-wielding criminals in their home driveway that week...yeah, let's make it almost impossible for someone to protect themselves...what a country.
 
Ridged screening of applicants and training should place this problem in the minority of incidents. Remember that it only takes 1 rotten apple to spoil the barrel.

That is why I bought up the example of the US Virgin Islands, we have something like 60 to 100 cops and two incidents of obvious abuse (murder, attempted murder) within a few months. Thats not counting the fuzzy grey incidents or normal confrontations.
Most officers have family here and are well known in the community. They get what seems to be reasonably good training and the full background check.
Unfortunatly the department here is no stranger to abuse of power.

I think the idea of using background checks, even when taken to the extreme, can only do so much good. Lots of things can happen to a person from when you allow them to have the only gun in town, to when they retire and hand it in. No matter how well you choose the cop or the soldier the risk exists.

2A allows for everyone else to have their own firepower as insurance against that. So instead of a few "hand choosen" men, which can go bad any number of ways, the community itself remains in control.
 
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