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Sad day, Knight Rifles may be history...

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by Rembrandt, Nov 6, 2006.

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  1. Rembrandt

    Rembrandt Member

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    Got word today from family in the Centerville, Iowa area that Knight Rifles closed its doors today. Don't know if they have any other manufacturing sites, but Centerville was the original location. First Austin-Halleck, now Knight....market must have gotten saturated with in-lines.
     
  2. Chawbaccer

    Chawbaccer Member

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    I think the market got saturated with cheap inlines. When a company makes a good, popular product,the imatators take over and all they have to offer is a cheaper porduct.
     
  3. riddleofsteel

    riddleofsteel Member

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    It is the Walmart mentality at its best. Anyone that wants one of those Spanish barrel inlines are welcome to them. I can not imagine setting off three pellets of Pyrodex or 777 next to my face in a barrel that is not even proof tested for over 30,000 PSI according to thier Spanish proof marks.

    If you want a good muzzleloader take a look at a Savage ML II or an Ultralight Arms 209 if you can afford one. With either rifle you get proof tested barrels, USA made equipment and the ability to burn smokeless power if you want to. I started using a Savage ML II this season and the smokeless is the way to go. Shoot it and clean it like a regular rifle.
     
  4. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    Last edited: Nov 7, 2006
  5. Plink

    Plink Member

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    If they were going out of business, I'd say good riddance to them, but another inline maker would just step up to fill the niche. Personally, I'd like to see muzzleloader season get back to it's roots, instead of just becoming another high performance rifle season like the centerfire season already is.
     
  6. riddleofsteel

    riddleofsteel Member

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    The best thing that could happen to muzzleloaders in general would be the return of blackpowder or a replica that acts like it. Pyrodex and 777 ect. is crap IMHO.
     
  7. Gewehr98

    Gewehr98 Member

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    That's very, very sad, Plink.

    We shooters are trying to keep the shooting sports and hunting heritage from dying a slow, agonizing death. Fewer and fewer younger generations are taking up the tradition - and yet we have shooters cutting our own throats because they don't like the "other kind" of muzzleloader. I've been reading the anti-inline threads both here and on the Goex forums, and the venemous intolerance is truly something to behold, it rivals some of the most rabid anti-gun diatribes out there.

    "Modern" scoped inline muzzleloaders are not a new concept, far from it. Inline muzzleloaders were appearing as early as the 18th century, and Confederate Civil War snipers took great advantage of scoped Whitworth rifles.

    For some reason, those who feel threatened by inline muzzleloaders think there's an unfair advantage proffered by those firearms, either in accuracy or muzzle velocity. Never mind the fact that the inline ignition system is no more direct an ignition source of the main powder charge than underhammer and sidehammer rifles. It could be argued that the latter are in fact more direct than in-lines because there is no breech plug, especially when one uses a musket cap nipple. Likewise, accuracy and power are by no means the exclusive domain of the current crop of inline muzzleloaders. See "Whitworth" above if you doubt it, then do a search for the Gibbs muzzleloading rifle for further examples of accurate frontstuffers.

    What rubs the traditionalists wrong is that the inlines can be more reliable in foul weather, and that these new "ugly" guns allow hunters to take advantage of the muzzleloading deer seasons, something they had exclusively to themselves, and now it's just plain sour grapes that they have to share. Until the state wisened up, the traditionalists even got Colorado to temporarily ban the inlines.

    What they conveniently forget is that the guns are still loaded one shot at a time from the muzzle end, and that a state's Department of Natural Resources really dictates how long a season and how many muzzleloaders can head to the woods each fall, based on how they want to manage the herd population. Be it the archery season, blackpowder season, centerfire season, or sharp pointy stick season, it's all a wildlife conservation and management tool.

    Truthfully, the black powder shooting industry would be little more than a cottage effort without the legions of outdoorsmen who buy charcoal burners for hunting. Were it not for the debut of the "modern" inline muzzleloaders, there would be far fewer shooters out there at the range and in the woods. To disparage those folks in the blatantly hostile manner I've witnessed is neither fair nor particularly High Road. :(
     
  8. Plink

    Plink Member

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    I'm not disparaging anyone and I'm not one on those boards flaming inline shooters. The initial hostility in my post was aimed at Knight Muzzleloading for their continued support of Toby Bridges, when others like Pedersoli and Goex haved wised up and pulled such support.

    To many of the folks using the inlines, the muzzleloading season is just another "long range rifle season", another chance to get a deer, with no respect or regard to the it's heritage and original intention.

    It doesn't bother me at all that inlines are more weatherproof. I put a silicone band over my cap to weatherproof it also. I'm sure it bothers the flintlock hunters that I even use a caplock, and especially a weatherproofed one.

    My gripe isn't so much with the inline guns themselves, as it is with the fact that the muzzleloading season is being turned into a long distance rifle season. The guns are becoming more advanced all the time. With the advent of the new nitro powder burning front stuffers, the situation is just getting worse. Where will it end? "Muzzleloaders" with the ballistics of a .300 Winmag? I mean afterall, if you stuff it down the front of the barrel, that makes it a muzzleloader, right? A line needs drawn somewhere.

    By their very nature, muzzleloading guns have always had limitations. That's why smokeless centerfires became so popular, so fast. Today's muzzleloaders are turning into nothing more than "caseless smokeless centerfires".

    What needs to happen here is both sides getting together and setting some realistic restrictions to preserve the original intent of the season. I'd like to see nitro powder and the sabot banned from muzzleloading season. Make it for BP and substitutes, and round ball or lead conical only. This would let those who prefer modern styled guns to hunt right along side those who prefer traditional styled ones. With pretty much the same limitations and within the original intent of the season.

    Regardless of the style of gun used, the essence of muzzleloading has always been a lead ball or lead bullet. If someone wants to hunt with a Whitworth, more power to them.

    If you've ever shot using one of those 3 foot brass scopes, you'd know why they were never popular for hunting. I don't know where I stand on modern optics, but if the season was restricted to ball or conical only, I don't think it would matter.

    The bow hunters had to deal with the techno stuff infesting their season also. They came together, worked it out and set some reasonable restrictions, which included restricting crossbows use, even though there's a lot more historic precedence for crossbows than there is for inline muzzleloaders.

    That's why my comment about wanting to see muzzleloading season return to it's roots. It's not about the inline guns. It's about it turning into a long distance rifle season, when it was never intended to be one.
     
  9. riddleofsteel

    riddleofsteel Member

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    Sure.....let's have a traditional archery season with long bows only with no sights or plastic allowed. Then a week later let the recurve guys come in to hunt then a week later the compound bows could take the field.
    When muzzleloading season comes around let the flintlock guys with round balls only get the first week then the percussion guys get three days then the inlines can hunt for the final weekend.
    And for modern rifles. Why do the guys with scopes get to hunt with me when I use open sights? Shouldn't I get a special season?

    See what I mean....The muzzleloader season is just that, a muzzleloader season. At least it is in NC. This fact drives the industry to perfect the muzzleloading rifle. If you set boundries people will improvise within them for a hunting advantage. This is what is happening now. My smokeless muzzleloader has near the same ballistics as a .375 H&H Magnum. It wears a modern scope and at a distance you can not tell the difference in it and a stainless Savage bolt action.

    Muzzleloading blasphamy????

    D*mn right!!

    Sweet blasphamy to this old man with eyes too tired for open sights and too tired of the Pyrodex crap the Walmarts of the world force on me.
     
  10. Plink

    Plink Member

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    Well, there ain't a heckuva lot of improvising they can do if limited to round ball or lead conical. The sabots and smokeless high performance muzzleloaders could be used during regular rifle season. I use a muzzleloader during regular season most of the time too. It would keep muzzleloading season from turning into "just an extension of regular rifle season" which it's becoming.

    I'm not for splitting dozens of seasons as there's no reason to. The archery folks did it right. Crossbows were their "sabots" and were removed from the season. Everyone else got along fine, regardless of the style of bow they choose to hunt with. Consequently, one archery season. Remove the smokeless muzzleloaders and sabots from muzzleloading season, and traditional shooters and inliners would do the same, under the same limitations that defined a "muzzleloader" when the season was conceived.

    I know that most modern high performance muzzleloaders don't want "inconvenienced" by limitations, but face it, those limitations are what defines a muzzleloader in the spirit of which the season was created. I don't see any other option though. We can either stay divided and continue to bicker, or come together and work on a solution. I'm sure bowhunting went through these same growing pains when compound bows came on the market, but they worked it out in the end.
     
  11. Gewehr98

    Gewehr98 Member

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    Where did range and long distance restrictions come into play?

    Is there an arbitrary range listed somewhere where one cannot use a muzzleloader to engage a target, be it paper, deer, or redcoat? I've never seen such language used to define what is and isn't allowed in the woods during muzzleloading season, and know very well that long-range black powder shooting is common since rifles took over for smoothbore muskets, and that happened in flintlock days, btw. Again, see Ferguson, Whitworth, Gibbs, Kentucky Rifles, you name it. The Americans were particularly vexing to British officers, who on occasion had their horses shot out from under them at distances of 400 yards. Horse - deer, you tell me which is the tougher target. If I want to take a whitetail at 400 yards using either a Civil War Whitworth .45 or Knight sabot frontstuffer, what's the difference, and who will be impudent enough to tell me I can't?

    Even Chuck Hawks has come out with a few words for the vociferous traditionalists and their fight against modern inline muzzleloaders:

    As for the crossbow argument, I'm looking at the Wisconsin bow season regs, and sure enough, there they are - crossbows! My dad, at age 75, is actually going to use his Barnett crossbow for deer season next year. Nationwide, I see many states allowing crossbows, see here:

    http://www.barnettcrossbows.com/crossbowregulations.htm

    Again, I see nothing but sour grapes and intolerance, which precludes divide and conquer. Deer season in this day and age is strictly a management tool as dictated by a state's Department of Natural Resources for the purpose of herd management. Whining about inline ignition is no more productive than flintlock shooters complaining about the benefits of percussion caps, or matchlock shooters grousing about flintlocks, cutting their noses off to spite their faces. Perhaps in the spirit of compromise and the real motive behind the primitive game season, the ground rules should mandate flintlocks or touch hole handgonnes with handheld slow matches, or even sharp pointy sticks as an across-the-board leveling tool to keep traditionalists happy. :(
     
  12. TooTech

    TooTech Member

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    When I started out with handguns I bought wonder-nine automatics. Now I buy old Colts, and Freedom Arms revolvers.

    When I started rifle shooting I bought a Weatherby and an AR-15, now I buy vintage Winchester lever guns.

    For muzzleloading I shoot a TC Omega.

    It's evolution. The more you learn about a sport the more likely you are to move into it's more challenging aspects.

    If everyone has to start off in the "deep end", there will be a lot fewer people swimming.

    Besides, I don't know about YOUR state, but Minnesota has a PLENTITUDE of deer.
     
  13. riddleofsteel

    riddleofsteel Member

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    When archery seasons were first put into law the high tech bow was the glass laminated recurve. So in that line of thought the compound is the "sabot/smokeless" of the recurve world. In the really old days we built our own long bows from laminations of wood and leather or fiber glass.
    Now you are trying to tell me that a Mathews Switchback shooting carbon fiber arrows tipped with expanding disposable broadheads, held and released by a trigger shooting aid is a bow in the same concept as a Fred Bear Kodiak recurve shooting wooden arrows with flat broadheads you have to sharpen yourself?
    :what:
    Sure it is. And sure it is not. Your have to pull and hold both back and release them both to shoot. Other than that they are light years apart. The Switchback is a kinetic string gun compared to the laminated fiberglass and wood Kodiak. Of course remember that the laminated recurve was an improvment over the long bow.

    The point here is simple. Rather than making things better you are the one driving the wedge, the wedge between hunters. If it shoots an arrow and you have to hold it back it is a bow. Therefore legal during archery season. Not antique weapons season, archery season.
    If it loads from the muzzle it is a muzzleloader and legal during muzzleloader season. Some states have experimented with flinklocks only and no sabots and no scopes to a limited degree of success. I suggest you move to one of those fine states.
    As for NC we all get along fine here. During archery season I observed a young man with a long bow that had harvested a fine buck with his own handcrafted wooden arrows. Man that took me back 40 years to when I hunted the same way. However his hunting partner who had a bad shoulder was packing a crossbow. Here in NC we allow that with a doctor's note. I did notice his high tech string gun had not put a deer on his truck.
     
  14. oneshooter

    oneshooter Member

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    Ya'll know my feelings on this subject. I shall remain silent.

    Oneshooter
    Livin in Texas
     
  15. mothernatureson

    mothernatureson Member

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    see ya

    Good riddance. I am sorry about anyone in Centerville losing their job. All the in lines have done is crowd the woods with nimrods trying to extend the shotgun/rifle season. Im not a bowhunter, but I see the major catalogs of outdoors gear are now selling crossbows. I know, some of you will say, "We have got to stick together as sportsmen, and not have this bickering over forms of hunting weapons". I've paid my dues.
     
  16. riddleofsteel

    riddleofsteel Member

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    I was jesting earlier about the micro division of the hunting seasons but some real primitive hunting days would be interesting. They don't have to be statewide and could be held on public land or on land that does not get much hunting pressure otherwise.
    I would like to see guys out with flintlocks and round patched ball ammo or guys out with long bows, wooden arrows and non disposible broadheads. Let's leave out the cammo and tree stands as well. It would interesting to see how many deer are killed.
    I remember hunting with homemade long bows and muzzleloaders we built from kits. I always seemed to get a deer but not as often as with today's equipment.
    My first buck was killed with a homemade longbow shooting cedar arrows tipped with a two blade broadhead made from spring steel. I was wearing a green plaid shirt and brown wool pants. My face was striped with stove black.
    My first muzzleloader deer was killed with a flintlock Kentucky rifle I built from an kit from Italy. I browned the hardware and barrel and hand rubbed the stock with linseed oil. The balls were handcast from wheel weights and fishing sinker lead. We cut our own patches and greased them with Crisco and beeswax mixture. I was wearing a fringed blanket coat and an orange wool cap when I put a ball thru a fat doe in a pine thicket.

    Good memories
     
  17. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

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    Well, I guess I'll take it easy on "banning" inlines from the field.

    Let's just say I'll feel sorry for all those poor, deluded schlubs who are cheating themselves out of the blackpowder experience by relying on plastic and stainless abortions loaded with rabbit pellets and pistol bullets and who then separate themselves from the real world with glass, nitrogen, and 250 yards.

    :neener:
     
  18. 22-rimfire

    22-rimfire Member

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    Great thread by the way. I am a fence sitter on this issue. Where I grew up, muzzle loader meant primitive and did not include inlines. Where I live now, they allow inlines and I just got one. Why? I just wanted to join the fun. If I like it, I may buy a more primitive muzzle loader (probably a Hawken). Here in TN they allow crossbows now and I am against it (except for handicapped hunters) for the same sort of reasons as Plink passionately expresses his feelings on muzzle loaders. Some states had long debates about allowing compound bows during archery deer season.

    I hunt deer with a revolver. I would like to see revolvers included as an option during black powder season here. The effective range is less than most modern inlines. I would prefer that only straight sided cartridges be allowed and that be limited to .357 mag or larger with a minimum barrel length of 4 inches. No centerfire "rifle" handguns for deer except during rifle season. I'm not winning any friends with that statement.

    I also don't care for para-military rifles (i.e. SKS, AR15 and similar, AK47 clones, Mini-14, Mini-30, etc.) being acceptable for deer hunting. I would even be comfortable with a flat rule not allowing ANY semi-automatic rifle or shotgun for deer hunting. So we all have our little rants and preferences as to what is appropriate for deer hunting.

    As far as Knight goes, they will continue to make black powder rifles. They were somewhat innovative, but the innovation wave went to CVA and TC. I hate to see anyone loose their jobs. At least they aren't relocating to China.
     
  19. Plink

    Plink Member

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    Long range shooting in a war situation is a completely different beast. Shooting the horse out from under someone, or maybe hitting the rider in an arm, well any hit is a good hit. I'd like to think that deer hunters are more ethical than that and insist on putting their shots in the kill zone. If they can do that with a Whitworth or whatever, more power to them. A lead conical is a lead conical.

    When we get into sabots and nitro based powder, we are getting off course though. Centerfire ballistics=centerfire season. Like I say, I have nothing against inline guns. Using smokeless powder and sabot during centerfire season, then using black powder or substitute and round ball or conical during muzzleloader season, makes an inline gun a versatile choice. But turning muzzleloader season into an extension of centerfire season is what I stand against.

    I'm not one of those running around screaming that inlines must be banned, etc. But the inliners can complain about the traditionalists all they want and it's not going to get anything done. They're not going to stop. The only thing that's going to work is some compromise. What I offered above is only my suggestion on the compromise. Perhaps there are better solutions, and I'd like to hear them if there are.

    "The traditionalists should just drop it" isn't going to work, so we either stand divided, or pull together to find a solution. I'm already standing in my version of middle ground. They want inlines banned. I don't. I just want the season returned to it's roots by whatever is the least intrusive means possible.
     
  20. CROWHOP

    CROWHOP Member

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    Isnt the whole point of ML season to get close and make yourself a better hunter?I shot a doe this year at 50- 60 yards and it was the best hunting experience I have ever had.Im with plink on this one.I dont care what a guy uses.Maybe a guy with an inline will want more of a challenge and go traditional.
     
  21. Gewehr98

    Gewehr98 Member

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    Lots of belly-aching.

    The whiners have made my decision for me, so here's my next deer rifle for BP season, the Hawken will stay at home. For the uneducated, it's a replica of an 1865 English Gibbs - a contemporary of the Whitworth and every bit as accurate at long range. So, is it traditional enough for the purists, or not? I wont disparage the person who doesn't feel comfortable with long-range hunting because they can't hit the vital zone of a deer past 50 yards, but don't dare tell me I can't take the shot with my own frontstuffer, vernier sights or otherwise. :scrutiny: (Gary, about that Whitworth-barreled flintlock, just say the word!)

    [​IMG]

    I for one don't believe it's the inliners making the most heat and friction. They're happy to be out there in the woods putting venison in the freezer. So now that Toby Bridges decides to push back at the traditionalists, it's the Spanish Inquisition all over again. Reading this and other forums, it's the traditionalists making the biggest stink, and lest we forget, Chuck nailed that one squarely on the head:

    So if the traditionalists choose not to drop it, that's their prerogative. They're already in the minority, and on the verge of being on the outside looking in. Funny thing is, a lot of the beginner inliners I see at the range are so intrigued with their new hobby they often consider a more traditional percussion or flintlock gun as their next frontstuffer. Were I one of those self-righteous types with a flinter or sidehammer percussion rig, I'd think the smartest move would be to welcome them into the world of vintage toys with open arms.

    In the meantime, a muzzleloader is a muzzleloader, a bow is a bow, and a sharp pointy stick is a sharp pointy stick. The Department(s) of Natural Resources dictates how many deer they want harvested each year depending on herd size, Chronic Wasting Disease, natural predators, forage, harshness of winter, and other factors. All the hunters do is simply abide by that yearly edict with whatever tool they need for the time of season.

    Myself, I killed a deer with a snare and axe in combat survival school back in 1989. I think that's the common place where the playing field should be leveled if folks want to make a stink about "primitive" hunting. Leave the SUV at home, too. ;)
     
  22. Plink

    Plink Member

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    I wouldn't know. I'm not a purist. It's a gorgeous gun though, and runs along the lines I've been looking at, myself. That or perhaps a nice Scheutzen rifle. I'm wanting to get deeper into the target shooting aspect of muzzleloading.

    I highly doubt they'll be on the outside looking in. There's too many decades of success behind them. Worst case scenario, nothing changes. Best case scenario, we all come to some compromises, and we all keep right on a huntin'. There's a LOT of momentum and activity on the traditional side of things after Toby kicked the sleeping dog.

    I shoot with a lot of inline shooters. We often take turns on each other's guns and fun is had all around. Some fall into one camp or the other, and some own both kinds. Some of the inlines I've shot fit me better than my traditional styled guns.

    I couldn't agree more that welcoming new shooters is hugely important to our sport.
     
  23. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

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    Not even close. I'm deeply offended, I think such guns should be banned, and I think you should at least recieve probabtion -- if not jail time -- for even considering the use of one.

    So where can I get mine?
     
  24. Plink

    Plink Member

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    BTW, is that the Pedersoli version of the Gibbs? Those things have been cleaning up in long range competition. The price is good too.
     
  25. ocharry

    ocharry Member

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    hi guys ,, i have read all this stuff and for me it's the hunt ,,and i do it with a traditional 54 round ball gun that i built from scratch,,,i don't care for the inline stuff,, i think they look like modern bolt guns ,,and some of them have bolts:rolleyes: and i guess that's ok,, it's all in what you want and how you want it,,, for me it's black powder and a round ball,,,i like to do my deer hunting up close and personal,,,,like i have out smarted mr. smarty pants in his house,,,, but that's just me,,, anyway that's not why i got in here,, PLINK,,, you said you wanted to get deeper into target shooting ,,,,, well i just happen to have a sheutzen style rifle that i don't think i am going to use and i think i would like to see it go to a good home where it will be loved and cared for.... it is a 54cal. 32"(if i IIRC douglas) barreled gun,,, it has tang sights and a globe front,,, it is a cap lock,,, it has tiger stripe maple stock and forearm....i have moved past this gun to the bpcg game and it has just sat in the safe for about 12 or so years:eek: ..... if you are interested pm me your e-mail and i will send some pixs;) .....

    ocharry
     
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