Saiga 12 Prices

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The rifle-style sights also offer much better target acquisition than the traditional American shotgun sights

What are traditional "American" sights? Do you mean a simple bead? There's nothing faster, as one is supposed to point a shotgun, not aim......

Sidelocks are easily taken down, as are Perazzis with minimum tools or none at all - and they are muc better balanced and handling guns
 
Ummm.....to try & get back on topic.....
The rumor I heard was that Izmash entered banckruptcy, and someone else is taking over production, but this has caused an interruption in the supply. Nothing is certain but uncertainty until
1) production is in full swing
2) importation has resumed & inventory is available
3) the ATF dark cloud passes

I'm hopeful all three of these things will happen, but anything's possible. I'm glad I already have mine, but I'd love another. I paid $550 in '08, but that doesn't mean much now. FWIW, the price hovered around the $500 mark until a month or so ago. It's hard telling where the new equilibrium will be. If it makes you feel any better, this is the second time I've heard the rumor that the distributor raised the price $200. I guess that makes $700 the correct price, but you might still be able to find an old stock gun somewhere.
 
For the average HD SG, my 1187-P is just as effective as my Saiga 12 (debatebly, so is my Mossberg 500).

That being said, for Tactical situations, nothing beats the ease of reloading the Saiga vs. tube-fed SG's hands-down.

-Cheers
 
The large mags hanging down could be a good or a bad thing depending on the operator. One thing is true, SWAT teams in the east use them and take advantage of them really well so if you had not tried one, do it and then decide if it might work for you.

For me it works. Accuracy with slugs is also pretty good for a 19" smooth bore shotgun barrel.

Cheers.
 
You don't need to worry about Izhmash's bankruptcy. They're like GM, "too big to fail". They're too important to Russia's economy and their military security. Izhmash makes a lot more than just guns, including cars, tools, and motorcycles. Most likely it is those divisions bringing the company down. I just checked their website, and I notice that their motorcycles are no longer listed, which suggests to me that is an unprofitable division that got axed. Their weapons aren't going away any time soon, so don't you worry.
 
I plan to use mine as my woods "bear" gun. Yes, it is heavy and the 20 round drum more so, but having been bluffed charged twice in the Interior by two different bears, and charged once for real by a bear, 20 rounds of 12 gauge bring to me comfort and piece of mind.
 
Ronsch,
You will not need more than 1 round for each bear. Try a magnum slug called 'Black Magic' by Brenneke that is a 600gr slug that will take the bear's head off. The closer the better. They collapse on impact. Buy a few boxes and try one in each case to make sure it is a good batch. Always a good idea with dangerous game up close.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/37896-5.html

Cheers,
E.
 
That being said, for Tactical situations, nothing beats the ease of reloading the Saiga vs. tube-fed SG's hands-down.

I don't entirely agree. While it may be good in matches, or in offensive situations, defensively the reload capability may actually be worse:

The primary reason is the magazines are quite large and bulky. The dimensions of them are for holding big rounds.
Primarily someone who has planned to need a reload ahead of time is going to be carrying one.
People wear special gear to hold such things when used at matches or offensively. However you won't be wearing such gear when you go pick up a long arm to use defensively.
I cannot really see someone grabbing the shotgun and an extra bulky magazine, especially not multiple bulky magazines while dressed in typical clothing during a sudden potential defensive scenario.
That means all those loaded bulky magazines are going to sit right where they were, while the individual grabs the shotgun.
Unless they remain stationary next to those loaded magazines then they probably won't have any reload potential if they run out of rounds.


Just the typical 7-10 round box magazines are so bulky that attaching an extra one to the gun would add considerable bulk and is rather impractical.
What that means is in a typical scenario a person is going to be limited to the number of rounds in the magazine.
While in a traditional tubular shotgun they have the rounds in the magazine, and can make use of any loose rounds including whatever number have been attached to the gun or stuffed in a pocket. Single rounds are a lot easier to attach or make use of available space than big blocky 12 gauge box magazines.

Now loaded with a drum proven reliable it is pretty cool, it has a lot of rounds initially.
But a drum is a bit more complicated with more to go wrong than a box magazine. It also becomes heavy and certainly is more of a carbine in handling than a quick point and shoot shotgun (which can be just fine.)


So I really don't see the ability to reload the typical box magazine used for such firearms quickly as a real world advantage. That advantage would require people to actually carry or have immediately available a spare magazine and the magazines for these are bulkier than a 30 round AR/AK magazine.



A major benefit I see with a box magazine that is more likely to be realistic to potential users is the weight of additional rounds is added between the primary and support hand and closer to the stock.
Leverage does not work against the shooter adding extra weight towards the muzzle. More rounds is simply more weight between both hands, and has less impact on the overall handling per round.

However I would much rather have a shotgun with a solid machined steel receiver than a sheet metal design with trunnions that are bound to wear out in a fraction of the rounds.



I plan to use mine as my woods "bear" gun. Yes, it is heavy and the 20 round drum more so, but having been bluffed charged twice in the Interior by two different bears, and charged once for real by a bear, 20 rounds of 12 gauge bring to me comfort and piece of mind.

That is funny to even picture. Unless your "woods" adventuring consists of driving your vehicle someplace and staying close to it then I would say such a setup is far too heavy and awkward for what it offers. You would be much better off with a rifle in a large caliber that takes a lot less effort to sling and is less likely to snag on things like a drum will.
The thought of trying to hike around or sling a shotgun with the odd dimensions of a large drum is funny.
The shotgun is itself about 8 pounds before adding accessories, the drums nearly 2 pounds empty. Add the weight of the lead, powder, hulls, etc of all the rounds and it is starting to become a burden. You could carry a battle rifle if you want to pack that kind of weight around, or a scout rifle in a potent caliber for much less weight.
The awkward dimensions of a drum with that weight along with the weight of whatever tools or supplies you need for what you are doing in the woods and I doubt you are going to find it pleasant.
Then consider how fragile a drum can be in a rugged environment. Perhaps fine at home or at the range but most are not built with the type of durability I would take into the woods.
 
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Zoogster--I specifically stated that for HD a pump or semi will suit just fine.

However, for Tactical situations (Military/LE) I say the Saiga's ability for facilitated reloads is key (IMHO, tactical has nothing to do with home defense unless somebody wants to play Rambo).

-Cheers
 
People wear special gear to hold such things when used at matches or offensively. However you won't be wearing such gear when you go pick up a long arm to use defensively.

A lot of people attach clips to the mag for matches. Why not just slip the clip over whatever your wearing, unless its just your skivies that might pull them down I guess.

20 rounds with a saiga drum on a griz up close!?? lol! If you miss the kill zone and jam you are done.
Get a good hunting rifle good placement and you just need one round, maybe too.

If you mis close up with anything including "a good hunting rifle" you're done. A semi of some sort is going to be very fast to followup. The only thing faster would be a double gun. As the owner of a 20 round drum I wouldn't haul it all over the woods. I think my S12 is probably 13 pounds with a drum full of slugs. I'd get a nice light 458 SOCOM likely an SBR. It only holds ten but in the even of a real charge I doubt one is getting off 20 rounds anyhow. It would be less than half the weight and with the right loads pack a good whallop.

However I would much rather have a shotgun with a solid machined steel receiver than a sheet metal design with trunnions that are bound to wear out in a fraction of the rounds.

When you shoot enough rounds to wear out a saiga let me know. I've never heard of that happening. The $450 cost of a new gun would pale in comparison to the cost of ammo to do that

I like the Saiga but my 870 is better in everything except reoloading speed.

My saiga has much less perceived recoil than any of my 870s. In my hands follow ups, particularly hammers are notably faster. Unless one is going to run a 26" barrel and an Xrail the saiga has better capacity. If you do run that setup then the Saiga would be more compact and better balanced. There is of course also the whole argument that for many people semis are simply more reliable in their hands than a pump.

I would agree for typical HD a lot of the advantages of an S12 are non factors.
 
Among other 'technicalities' a saiga 12 will not be allowed in many organized Safaris and hunts.

Um the guy is talking about walking around in the woods of AK and using it for bear defense. What does it not being or not being allowed on many organized safaris or hunts have to do with that? He wasn't talking about hunting.

Our enthusiasm and personal preferences will not change the reality of an entire industry of dangerous animal hunting.

See above.

Safari and dangerous animal hunters, No.

See above.

I love them too but lets not try to make a donkey bark.

How about we just try to read the post before we start commenting.

Further as I clearly stated I would use a different gun. There was a gentleman on the beowulf forums that is a guided in AK and uses a .50 beowulf for that task. A 458 Socom is substantially similar to the Beowulf.
 
How about reading the post, "then thinking about the post and what the situation means", and then commenting?

Good advice. He clearly was not referencing being out bear hunting or on safari. No one did until you strangely brought those topics up. He said I want a "bear gun" for the interior of AK, I've been bluff charged and charged. That sounds like a gun for defending one's self against an attack much more than it sounds like hunting.

My buddy killed a brown bear last month. One shot through the neck. Barrett .50cal @ 400 yards. The head was barely hanging
on w/o spine.

How is that pertinent to the discussion?

Anyone is entitled to carry with them in the woods whatever they 'legaly' want,

Are the entitled to carry whatever they "legally want" or entitled to carry to carry what ever they want so long as its legal?
 
What importation ban?

Dangit... just checked my source. They were $450 a couple months ago, now $630 and out of stock!!!! :( GRRRRR....
 
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Given the ATF's study I think there is as much reason to believe that they will be able to import PG configuration guns as there is to think that the S12 will no longer be able to be imported. The FUD has caused price jumps and panic sales. This wouldn't be the first time prices got up to $800 only to fall when the next shipment came in.
 
I don't wish to fuel any panic because it is often created and encouraged to boost sales, and creates artificial demand and price hikes.

However presumably if they were to stop them it would be like the prior shotguns they have stopped.
If they were declared destructive devices like the old South African and French Striker and SPAS shotguns they stopped importation of they would not be "grandfathered" per say.
They would all become "Destructive Devices", including those already owned, and requirr registration as such, and become illegal in states that prohibit such things (and many use the federal definitions of NFA items for certain restrictions.)
Along with gaining all the other NFA restrictions and requirements.
 
However presumably if they were to stop them it would be like the prior shotguns they have stopped.
If they were declared destructive devices like the old South African and French Striker and SPAS shotguns they stopped importation of they would not be "grandfathered" per say.

No stopping importation and declaring it a DD are two separate and distinct things. Also nothing about the study indicates that imports would stop. Worst case I can see is they have to slightly redesign it to not accept the current aftermarket mags that hold more than 5 rounds and remove the side scope rail. That is the worst, provided the adopt the study the released.

There has been nothing but bases wild speculation as to classification as a DD. It is that type of thing that has caused the price jump and panic buys. Probably all the same folks that were sure the govt was coming for their guns in the immediate wake of the last presidential election and were out buying WASR 10s for $800, the same ones that sale for $375 today.
 
Saiga 12 shorties


I noticed they are selling them as Any Other Weapons, which means they are not simply imported and converted shotguns that came with a butt stock or they would be Short Barreled Shotguns and not AOWS.
So they are likely American made receivers, unless they are importing new receivers.


Which brings up my next point, if they simply stopped import and did not declare them all Destructive Devices like prior Spas and Striker shotguns, then domestic production of the Saiga12 design could fill the gap.


No stopping importation and declaring it a DD are two separate and distinct things. Also nothing about the study indicates that imports would stop. Worst case I can see is they have to slightly redesign it to not accept the current aftermarket mags that hold more than 5 rounds and remove the side scope rail. That is the worst, provided the adopt the study the released.

If you read the definition of the 1968 GCA "Destructive Device" addition to the NFA you will find

(B) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which
the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable
for sporting purposes
) by whatever name known which will, or which may
be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an
explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of
more than one-half inch in diameter; and

(C) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in
converting any device into any destructive device described in
subparagraph (A) or (B) and from which a destructive device may be
readily assembled.

When you see "secretary" for all intents and purposes just think ATF in reading that.

If the shotgun was considered too unsporting to import in what is currently an entirely legal configuration, I don't see how it would be considered too "unsporting" for import yet "sporting" enough to not be a Destructive Device.
All that would do is require domestic Saiga 12 production to bypass the import restrictions.
How will they declare it Sporting and Unsporting at the same time?
This is not a rifle under .50, and is playing by different rules than such imports.
No I imagine if it is restricted for import it would be because it was declared "unsporting" and so would share the fate of the Striker and SPAS shotguns and become an NFA item.
All existing Saigas would then become Destructive Devices too because a firearm over .50 was determined to be "unsporting", just as happened with the Striker and Spas.
 
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I don't think this is just a scare. I am the first person to normally scoff at the scare, but I've gone to the ATF website and read their study on shotguns they released a month or so ago. They listed some shotguns they considered particularly "unsuitable for sporting purposes" and showed Saiga's and the drum mags they make for Saiga's. They are delaying the final word until at least May so that people have time to give their opinions. Unless they are swayed in some way, Saiga 12 has "crosshairs" on it in a bad way. I think this one is for real.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/012611-study-on-importality-of-certain-shotguns.pdf
 
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