Salt bath annealing?

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Demi-human said:
It seems rather intuitive to me. Hold only the part of the case in a medium that is the precise temperature one wishes it to be. Instead of heating with a much higher temperature, that could harm the case, in one spot and have conduction move the heat to the shoulder in a meandering manner.

I do think a small pot of seven hundred degree liquid salt, overturned on the reloading bench, or any where, may be more hazardous than a torch that could be shut quickly off if knocked over. But there are nuances to every way. Variety is the spice, so to speak. What one loses in efficiency, one gains in precision.
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The problem with running the actual temp you need, is lag in the part getting there. Your fingers will get hot before the brass reaches the target temp. Once a part is near 90% of target it takes longer and longer to reach the temp. You have the temp set at 700F and you only need to get to 650 which is very doable.

If your doing testing in the lab conditions your required to hold a part at temp for a min of 5 minutes, preferred 10 for a liquid bath. 1 hr if gas medium.

This is why using a much hotter source is better in the application. Takes less time, prevents the heat from transferring to the base.
 
The AMP is out there, it’s more expensive than torch based systems, and it is one at a time. It’s pretty fast, but it’s not nearly as fast as the turntables or the rollers.

For my personal use, I’m working on about a $350-400 target cost to build my own induction annealer, targeting either a multi-coil system to do a row or a grid of cases simultaneously, OR do a pass through row annealer which will let me feed a turntable or chain conveyor through the coil. More power demand than the AMP, for sure, but also a much, much higher throughput rate. Initial design case looks like I should be able to get it done under $300, but we shall see...
 
Varminterror said:
...do a pass through row annealer which will let me feed a turntable or chain conveyor through the coil.
Click to expand...

This is the direction my thoughts head in. I would need to study much to be able to feel confident enough to build one.

A case-feeder fed turning wheel, with the inductor in a radius at the top. A star wheel to move the cases through it and along the radius wall, which turns the cases in the inductor.

Well, it looks cool in my thoughts anyway.
 
Demi-human said:
This is the direction my thoughts head in. I would need to study much to be able to feel confident enough to build one.

A case-feeder fed turning wheel, with the inductor in a radius at the top. A star wheel to move the cases through it and along the radius wall, which turns the cases in the inductor.

Well, it looks cool in my thoughts anyway.
Click to expand...


Constructing the coil is much more difficult and the efficacy of the induction is compromised when the coil shape isn’t uniform around the work piece - aka, not round. Going through a straight row coil is one thing, turning through an arc shaped coil is an entirely different matter. I have an idea of how I would have to fabricate the coil, but I also know it wouldn’t be easy, and messing up the distances from the work piece would, alternatively, be very easy.

I’ve thought a bit about laying the cases on their side, or partly so, and using a chain drag conveyor design to roll them along the track, rolling them through a parallel side row coil. Holding the assembly at 45 degrees would keep the cases against the bottom and the side, and they could be fed on top of the belt on the other side for indexing/separation.

The my degrees are in chemical engineering and physics, so the mechanical part is the easy part. It’s the electrical part on which I really have to focus. I’ve used my phone a friend option for all of my electrical engineering needs, so when someone starts talking mosfets, I have to dig out a book... coil shape and size dictates my dwell time and power demand (balanced), so it’s a little bit of a chicken and the egg thing right now.
 
I majored in beer and w, well, let's say I didn't spend my college time wisely.
But now that you say it, it's hard enough to make an incredibly strong magnetic field, moreso to warp it into an arc.
I like the idea of filling the hopper with cases and letting it run. I was hoping the Annealeez would work that way, but it is too fiddly. I don't run it unattended, but I wanted a machine for consistancy. If I had to stand there and actively monitor and adjust it, like I do, then the salt bath and a metronome would be more precise. For low volume, high quality brass.

I like the AMP, but again just one at a time. I do own an AR. Sometimes there is a run of six or seven hundred. And, obviously, the coin!
Then there's Annie. She looked perfect so I didn't bother with the price. I don't have it. But an automatic AMP would be nice, right?


Hmm. I'm going to look for an open sided induction coil. Just because I'm not building a rifle this spring doesn't mean I can't build something!
 
I am working on putting together the parts to start salt bath annealing, just ran through the math and even for higher volume stuff like 5.56 brass once you are in a rhythm you could get through 1000 cases in just over an hour. Would not be too bad if you had some music or an audio book to listen to while you fed them through 2 at a time. For my lower volume stuff like 6.5 creedmoor I like the additional control over the process that this appears to give me over torch based systems.
 
A long time ago, I cast bullets for the 45ACP to use in IPSC (they called it IPSC back when). I didn't care what Brinell or what weight. I needed volume.
Now that I started the long range stuff, I need accuracy. I set up a PID with my Lee pot and now I am able to cast bullets within .5 grains of each other. Before, the weights would differ up to 4-5 grains. The different weights will give vertical dispersion and, maybe, fliers. When you line up that 300 yard chicken in the scope, one hopes that the consistency is there and the PID accomplishes a part of the total consistency.
I competed in SASS/Cowboy action cranking cases filled with commercial bullets at the rate of 500-600 per hour. Dillon 650. Used to have three of 'em set up.
Now, after the 38-55 cases are annealed, trimmed, and primed, I measure each load of powder and put it through a drop tube. A veggie wad is put over the black powder (Swiss) and this combo is compressed to a determined depth in the case enabling me to seat a tapered 310 grain bullet that protrudes well into the lands. I only anneal each case once since my rifle is a single shot and the bullets are a "slip fit" in the case. Fire formed. No crimp, no resize.
Too much trouble? Depends on what reults you want. :)
 
I like the salt bath annealing system. I have an Annealez machine which is easier, but the torch that came with the system does not seem to work very well. I tried the AMP machine. It works well, but it is too expensive for my wallet. The Salt bath system works for just a little over a hundred instead of the price of the AMP which is just a little over a thousand. So, you folks just go ahead and spend your hard earned $ any way you see fit. I am retired and I have more time than money.
 
rayatphonix said:
Demi, now I've used my salt bath annealer. I expect I've done between 600 and 800 pieces of brass. Compared to my propane annealer, I believe it's considerably more forgiving. A few observations:
- different calibers require different times in the bath. I assumed 308 and Creedmoor would be the same. 308 takes a second or two more; 30-06 even more.
- I have to rinse my brass afterwards, otherwise there's a salt residue. I never saw this mentioned anywhere.
- keeping a steady temperature is not easy, when in use I've learned to expect about a 10 degree variation
- I have not tried to do 223 or 204 brass yet, but I don't see a problem
- I'm not sure how it will work on short cases, like 6.5 Grendel.

Overall I like it and it was worth it. I don't shoot as many rounds as in the past, and it's easy to turn on and anneal the 20 cases I just shot.
Click to expand...
I did some 223 brass and discovered that I had to create a small platform for the cases to set on. Otherwise they would go too deep into the salt. I made my platform out of some cut down 40 S&W cases. It took a few trials before I figured out how much to cut the 40 S&W cases back. I used a case trimmer to do the work. It only took a few minutes and the 223 cases landed on the 40 heads just fine after I got used to it.
 


This is my setup. It's really simple and cheap.

It would be nice to add a PID, but it's not all that hard to keep an eye on the temperature, and adjust the melting pot accordingly.

Annealing is a function of time and temperature. As temperature increases, annealing increases exponentially. In the 825-850 F range, only about 3 seconds are required.

Before I started, I ran a search on how compatible brass is with the salts. There is no problem.

I've done everything from induction to my wife's gas range, and this is by far the slickest, easiest method I've tried. Just be sure you rinse very thoroughly.
 
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Just an FYI, I ordered the kit from Ballistics Recreations in Canada, and the shipment was turned around by the Canadian post because they think the annealing salt is a "dangerous good". So if you have ordered recently and not received it, that may be why.

He told me he would re-ship it by FedEx.
 
The Annie Induction annealer plus a Giraud annealing machine - less the torches - is the way to go. One of our guys here has said set up, but I saw one in action a few weeks ago, it’s become every card in my precision reloading hit deck. The price is steep, but it’s affordable enough such it’ll be cheaper than building my own and prototyping.
 
Toprudder said:
Just an FYI, I ordered the kit from Ballistics Recreations in Canada, and the shipment was turned around by the Canadian post because they think the annealing salt is a "dangerous good". So if you have ordered recently and not received it, that may be why.

He told me he would re-ship it by FedEx.
Click to expand...

Man that sucks, I just receive my order from them about a week ago. The salt is an oxidizer so it came ground. The kit appears to be well made and well thought out. A family member has been using it successfully to form some old BP rounds.
 
Any issues that you ran into? I plan on setting mine up today and run a few through it to try it out and practice a routine or figure out a routine. It seems too simple and it makes me think I'm missing something. Getting the liquid level right is my biggest concern is that a critical item or can you just roll with it?
 
I set up and ran a couple hundred cases through, it is actually pretty simple. To check the liquid level insert a single case into the liquid and pull it straight back out and let it cool, you should be able to see a salt ring on the case at the liquid level. You want the level to be almost to the shoulder/body joint. I used the phone app Metronome Beat set at 12 beats per minute to give me a 5 second soak time.
Warnings: You can do this process bare handed, don't, I recommend you use some thin mechanics gloves. Things are really hot and it doesn't take long for things to really warm up during this process. I would also recommend wearing safety glasses. You do when you shoot don't you. Don't "dip" things in the water bucket to cool them off drop them in, it does pop a little bit when it hits the water. Have a place ready to set the shell holder when you take it out, it is 1000 degrees F and it is covered in the salt solution. If you drop it in the water bucket it is going to pop.
 
I had my liquid level about 1/4" past the shoulder. Other than that, pretty much the same as what you described.
 
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