Same pwdr charge for boat tail vs. flat base? (6mm rem)

[lukester]

I'm early in the reloading process and learning curve for my 6mm remington (Ruger m77) and right now I only own the Speer manual #14.
Their 6mm rem loads for a particular weight bullet will show one unique bullet for that weight. (with the exception of the top end 100 or 105gr where they show both a flat base and boat tail w/ the same charge).

My particular question is for the 75gr Hornady v-max. The Speer manual info for a 75gr bullet indicates a 75gr speer w/ a flat base. Can I use the same charge data (working up from the minimum, of course) they give for a flat base bullet to load my v-max with boat tail?

In general, is the charge data for any flat base bullet applicable to a boat tail in the same weight?...

(btw, anyone out there with a Hornady manual want to swap me the 6mm rem info from yours for anything you might want from my Speer manual?...)

Thanks so much.
Lukester

 

[NCsmitty]

Remember this when you are loading different brands and styles of bullet design.

Bullet weight trumps bullet brands when using starting loads.

Boat tail or flat base can use the same starting load, as long as the bullet weight is the same.

The difference may occur as you are working up toward maximum load listed.

One type may prove more accurate than the other at different points in the work up.

It's possible that one or the other may not even be close to being accurate with that particular powder, in your own rifle. But will shoot well using a different powder.

That's why it's important to have a selection of powders and bullets and other components that you can try for a specific caliber in a specific rifle.

I'm sure you've seen people ask about pet loads on THR. The bottom line is, one guy's pet load may not shoot worth crap in another rifle. That's just the way it is.

I recommend getting as many on line data bases from reputable manufacturers/distributors and bookmark (or add favorites) for future references. Most powder makers and some bullet makers have this information available for free, and it's usually the most current data available.

Be careful and good shooting.



NCsmitty

 

[coug]

I think to maybe answer your question a little better. when using boat tail bullets you won't normaly build as much pressure, that is because a flat base seals better. the best way to find the max load in your rifle is to take it up a half grain at a time. this may be 2 or 3 grains more than your manual shows. if you want to shoot it as fast as you can take it up .5 grains at a time till you see pressure sighns then back off to the last one. but be careful. you can still over pressure on a hot day.

 

[rcmodel]

you won't normaly build as much pressure,

Except, a boattail is longer then a flat base of the same weight & style.
SO, more of it is taking up space inside the case when seated to the same OAL.

SO, pressure may be higher, not lower.

rc

 

[hometheaterman]

What powder do you want to use? I have a Hornady reloading manual and if you tell me what powder you want to use I can give you the info from the book for that powder.

 

[howlnmad]

Lukester,

All mentioned above is good advise. Go to the Hornady website and search around. I've read on a different forum that Hornady has their manual available there now. I don't know for sure (haven't checked cuz I own it).

 

[lukester]

Thanks everyone, for the replies so far. Smitty - I'm definitely working on bldg my collection of manuals/published data. And, I did buy a small sampling of several different bullets to try with (so far) 4 different powders and 2 different flavors of primers I have on hand. For whatever reason, I started with the 85 gr Sierra sptzr and the 75gr Hdy v-max. Thanks for the input and advice - and Coug & RCmodel also.

Hometheaterman - thanks for the offer. Right now I have on hand: IMR4350, IMR4064, H4831, and Varget. I'd be most interested in what the Hdy book says for the first two powders behind that Hdy 75gr v-max. If they list H4831 and Varget, that'd be great, too.

Howlnmad - Hornady does have their manual available there... to purchase I guess they wouldn't end up with my $30 some day, though, if they posted it for nothing.

Lukester

 

[ranger335v]

"In general, is the charge data for any flat base bullet applicable to a boat tail in the same weight?..."

In general, ALL reloading data is generic by bullet weight and powder type so the source of your info is largely irrelivant and adding more manuals accomplishes little for safety. The greatest change any of us can make to any book load is the firearm it's used in and that's a difference we can't avoid. Only we can judge if a charge is safe in our rig, that's why EVERY manual tells us to start low and slowly work to book max only if we have no excess pressure signs earlier.

Most loads are safe so we would never see any difference in bullet types but we can't casually swap components without confirmation. So, if you change ANYTHING in an established load, drop down a bit and only work back if signs allow. Otherwise you will be trusting to luck for your safety and that ain't smart.

Bullets normally totally seal the powder in the bore so flat tail or boat tail or goat tail really won't matter if the diameter is correct to start with.

 

[NCsmitty]

lukester, you seem to have a handle on the situation with component selection.
Be aware that in the past year or two, new powders have been introduced that take some calibers to the next level.

We will concentrate on what you have.

Your selection of powders is very good, and have a use in the 6mm Rem with different bullet weights.
If you go to www.hodgdon.com, they have a good list of loads to review, using those powders.
What do you plan on doing with the 6mm? Targets, varmints, hunting deer size game or a combination of these?

The 6mm Rem has always been a favorite of mine, and I had a super accurate M700 Varmint Special back in the day. It was fed a steady diet of the old 80gr Rem powr-lokt HP and H4350. I made some great shots with it, and only had myself to range the shots.
I'm sure we'll talk again.

I want to say that the other posters have good advice, especially when changing components.



NCsmitty

 

[Maj Dad]

Right now I have on hand: IMR4350, IMR4064, H4831, and Varget. I'd be most interested in what the Hdy book says for the first two powders behind that Hdy 75gr v-max. If they list H4831 and Varget, that'd be great, too.

lukester,
My vintage Hornady 4th Edition (1991) lists a 75 gr HP #2420, but the V-Max wasn't around those days. Starting loads for it: 4350 is 41.0 gr, top is 46.6 @ 3300 fps; 4064, 35.9 - 41.8, 3300 fps. It lists IMR 4831 but H4831 & Varget were just a gleam in some pyrotechnicians eye back then... If you are considering other powders, I recommend H380 and RL-19. I have shot 1/2" groups at 200 yds with both in my early Ruger M77 in 6mm (1:9 or 10 twist - did a crude cleaning rod/ruler test) - some almost one-holers at 100 yds - using Hdy 80 gr FMJs & Sierra 60 gr SPs. I have my best results with bullets of 90 gr or less (+1 for Nosler 90 & 95 gr Balistic Tips), but it will put 100 - 105 grainers into an 1" -1 1/2" at 100 yds with ease. My Ruger is the first rifle I have owned that is capable of such accuracy, and inspired me to start working up loads looking for that "perfect storm" of bullet, case, primer & powder.

One thing I have read in more than one place is that bearing surface relates directly to resistance to motion, thus directly to pressure. Long ogive bullets have less bearing surface as do BTs. HPs & RNFPs have more (in general) and one would surmise that those have higher pressures for a given load of powder. I'm not suggesting that you can use this as a guide in load development, but it's useful to keep in mind as you consider bullets like the V-Max for which you don't have exact load data. I spend idle time looking at the load listings in several manuals, and have done this for years. It gives you perspective and a basis for making decisions on those loads. One cardinal rule, law, even, in developing loads is start at the bottom and work up, as mentioned above; you cannot go wrong that way. Many years ago when I was inexperienced and foolish, I started with hotter loads. When I had to literally beat the bolt handle open on a custom 308 Mauser with a 2x4 I began to see the light. I am now a law-abiding reloader and will remain so

 

[Blackrock]

I have fed my 6mm Rem 788 a steady diet of Varget with most all bullet weights. I did try some Rel15 as well that did well.
FWIW my accuracy load is a Hornady 87g HPBT and 38.3g of Varget.

 

[lukester]

Thanks Ranger & Smitty... Ranger- I follow what you're saying and I think it gets right at the core of what I was wondering. And, I'm all about starting at the reportedly safe minimums. I appreciate the input very much.

Smitty - for now, I'm just looking to work up an accurate load to make pretty (small) pictures on the paper (at 100 and 200 at my club...) I've been fairly impressed with a couple of groups this gun shot w/ just the Rem. factory ammo (and my limited bench skills) and am excited about seeing what it can really do if I can find one of its "sweet spot" loads.

With a pound each of those powders I listed, it sounds like I might be able to find something that works... BUT - wouldn't be opposed to hearing about another to try that's not currently on my roster.

Thanks again,
Luke

 

[lukester]

Oh, thanks also Majordad and Blackrock. Looks like your replies popped in while I was typing my last reply. I'm jumping back to re-read them now.
Lkstr

 

[hometheaterman]

I will look up some of those powders in my Hornady manual later on tonight and let you know what I find out.

 

[NCsmitty]

Well, I have one more post here tonight.

Take a look at www.alliantpowder.com and view the 6mm Rem loads with Rel-17. I have some of that powder.
Hodgdon is now showing a new powder with similar results to Rel-17. It's called Suprform on the site.



NCsmitty

 

[hometheaterman]

Right now I have on hand: IMR4350, IMR4064, H4831, and Varget. I'd be most interested in what the Hdy book says for the first two powders behind that Hdy 75gr v-max. If they list H4831 and Varget, that'd be great, too.

Okay, looking in the Hornady 7th Edition manual for the 6mm Remington with a 75 grain V-Max bullet it lists the C.O.L.: as 2.825".

It doesn't list any options for IMR4350.

For the IMR 4064 it lists 35.2 grains as the starting charge and lists that as 2900fps. Then it lists 42.5 as the max charge and that's at 3400fps.

They don't list H4831 either. They do have IMR 4831 however.

For Varget they list the starting charge as 34.5 grains at 2900fps. For the max charge they list 40.5 grains at 3300fps.

Hope this helps. Just as a note, I'm not responsible for any errors made in this post, or in reloading, so use this info at your own risk.

 

[lukester]

Thanks Hometheaterman. Very interesting, though, that the Hrndy book doesn't list a load for IMR4350. The Speer manual gives a 6mm rem load for that powder in every single bullet weight they list from 70gr up to 105.

Here's an updated question, now, in light of the Hnrdy book info... This past weekend, I loaded 5 cartridges as follows:
44gr of IMR4350 with the 75gr Hdy V-max at 2.775 c.o.l.
This 44gr of IMR4350 is the minimum charge listed in the Speer manual for the 75gr Speer HP w/ the same c.o.l.
So... I've used the minimum charge and same c.o.l. for the same bullet weight from a published source. Only difference is mine was a boat tail vs. the Speer flat base... I'm led to believe by other reading/feedback/research that this is not an unreasonable/unsafe starting point w/ the v-max and this powder...
Thoughts?... (I'm not in too big a hurry to pull the bullets on those and start over if needed...)
Thanks again to all.

Lukester

 

[lukester]

update - for what it's worth...

Took my first ever reloads to the range this past weekend. Had some interesting results with my ol' inherited Ruger m77 in 6mm rem...
First, I think I'm starting with an inherently accurate gun to begin with. Even with the factory Rem. core-lokt ammo it shoots pretty tight groups. (and w/ the old Weaver 3-9x that's "stuck" on only about 6x...

The load of 44gr of IMR 4064 behind the Hornady v-max 75gr with overall length of 2.776 looks like it has huge potential. I only had 5 of these to test, (plus some factory ammo and some other 75gr v-maxes loaded w/ IMR 4064)
and 1, 3 & 5 were all in the same ragged hole. Shots 2 & 4 were not far away. A nickel would cover either one of them plus the ragged hole. At 100 yds w/ 6x optics, I'm telling myself that maybe the two fliers were operator error.
We'll see, though. The mailman brought my new (to me) 4-12x scope today. Will head back out soon w/ another batch of that load, plus a few different charges. Still have 10-15 of several other bullet weights/brands to try too.

 

[NCsmitty]

I know that you are feeling good about your first reloads working well. As you update equipment, (scope) you'll likely gain more confidence using an already accurate rifle in your Ruger. I do suggest using thread locking solution on your screws when you reassemble the scope. Take your time and develop your accuracy loads and have fun.
If you can, post some pics of your targets.




NCsmitty

 

[lukester]

Thanks - and a "small" correction

Smitty - thanks for the advice and encouragement.
Just tracked down my replacement Ruger scope rings today. One of the old ones had a hairline crack and the other had stripped screws... Hopefully, I'll make time to get the new scope on and boresighted so I can get to the range and get zeroed w/ the factory ammo... then get crackin' with my own loads again.
Two updates/corrections to my last post:
1. I took a look at the target at home and I had it a bit wrong. One of the "fliers" is very close to the 3-shot hole, but it might take more like a silver dollar to reach the other one.
2. My old scope is acually a 2-7x that's stuck just below 4x. (not a 3-9x stuck on 6, like I had remembered) The new one is 4-12x, so I'm really looking forward to the new view...

 

[Maj Dad]

Seeing you move out on the trail of The Perfect Storm has motivated me to put a 4x14 on the short list - I need to shoot up all the 6mm bullets I've accumulated and have a little fun in the process. Let us know how it goes!
Cheers,
George J.

 

[Ruger GP100 fan]

Hope I can slip this in here without breaking thread rules. I'm new to rifles having bought a 22-250 about 3 months ago. I found this on a store shelf today. First I've ever seen a bullet made specifically for barrel twist,but mine is 1:14 so I bought a box. Hopefully it won't rain tomorrow so I can try them out.

 

[NCsmitty]

Ruger GP100 fan, I use the 52gr A-Max in my own 22-250 with excellent results. The different manufacturer's are more in tune with reloaders, and it benefits them if they can avoid someone using the wrong bullet for the many different twist rate rifles available.
Those rifles having a 14" twist are sensitive to the lighter bullets and can shoot badly with bullets designed for faster twists.
Good luck with the A-Max loads.



NCsmitty