SAO 9mms, or the lack thereof...

[MTMilitiaman]

Okay, I'll admit it. I started out more of a .45/10mm Auto fan. Then I realized that since I suck with handguns and obviously need practice, something with a little less muzzle flip than my Glock 20, and with a little cheaper and more available ammo, might help. So about a year ago, I supplemented my G20 with a G19. I shoot this little bugger much better, and that combined with the research I have been doing as well, has given me a lot of confidence in the cartridge. I have slowly been dragged kicking and screaming into the 9mm crowd. With modern JHP, I think the 9 is fine, and I've never felt any more undergunned with the G19 than I have with any other handgun.

Now, this isn't a Glock bashing session. I love both my Glocks and have no complaints with their design, materials, or construction. Well, almost none. See, with growing frustration I have come to accept that maybe there is more to this grip angle thing than I originally wanted to admit. Even as I get better as a handgun shooter and my groups shrink, I find I still shoot high with my Glocks. And as before I ignored this tendency, attributing it I guess to my faults as a handgunner, I can no longer do so. I've started looking at other 9mm options out there. Now, one would think that with the plethora of designs out there, I would be more overwhelmed by my choices. Maybe I am too picky, but I was actually rather underwhelmed...

Here comes the rant: I don't claim to know it all, or to be the wise old sage. Actually, I find that as I near my 30th year on this earth, I've been constantly made aware of how little I actually know. Still, there are things I have tried and failed to wrap my head around, certain fads, or trends, that I can not understand. Things like wearing your pants half-way down around your knees, socks with sandles, two-wheel drive pickup trucks, and DA/SA autos just make no sense to me, and probably never will. I hate-HATE-DA/SA autos. This is what happens when you let lawyers and beaurocrats have control...you end up with two distinctly different trigger pulls on the same firearm. Awesome Here's another super idea--why don't we put two different accelerator pedals on all our vehicles too?

I am looking for a compact 9mm pistol, preferrably with a alloy frame, but I'll consider polymer or steel. It must be capable of being carried cocked and locked. It must have an ambi safety. And it must have both night sights, and a frame rail for mounting a light. I am looking for a barrel length between 3.5 and 4 inches, in a double stack pistol that is big enough to shoot comfortably, but small enough to be concealed if need be. It may sound like a lot to ask, but I disagree.

SIG can produce a SAO version of their P220 and put it on the market for around $700, but somehow taking the P226 and doing the same thing necessitates a 3x increase in price. X-Five, no thank you. CZ offers a full line of great pistols as well. The one that immediately caught my eye, however, and which fits my requirements and my needs to the proverbial "T," they opted not to import into this country, for reasons that escape me. P-02? I can only dream. I am aware they have a P-07 in polymer and I am trying to like it, but it's kinda like trying to like one chick when you have a crush on her sister. There are stacks of 1911s with most of these features, if you don't mind paying twice as much for a handgun with twice the weight and half the capacity, but JMB's true masterpiece even by his own admission, the P35 Hi-Power, is religated to two models in the Browning catalog and surplus pistols probably older than me from Argentina or some place like, buried in the Shotgun News. A modernized Hi-Power with a rail and some night sights would be awesome. Nope. None for me.

What am I missing here? Why is there not a single decent modern 9mm auto loader on the market? Why must we suffer through this rediculous DA/SA, decocker crap? I mean, pants manufactures still make pants with belt loops in case you, like me, still enjoy wearing your pants on your waist. Yet somehow, if you still enjoy a single, uniform, functional trigger pull on your handgun, you're screwed. Apparently everyone who shoots 9mms wears their pants around their knees?

 

[Skribs]

Here's another super idea--why don't we put two different accelerator pedals on all our vehicles too?

I lol'd. The point is a "safe" first shot and more accurate follow-up shots, but I agree, I'd rather have a SA-only with a safety than a DA/SA (and I'm a DAO/SFA kinda guy).

One thing you could do is carry a DA/SA with a manual safety, manually pull the hammer back after chambering a round, and then put the safety on.

I do agree that it's frustrating when you have 10 features/specs you want, and of the three closest options you have 9, 9 (missing a different feature) and 11.

 

[C0untZer0]

Get an HK P7M8 or M13

Problem solved

 

[ku4hx]

Well said. I cut my teeth on single action pistols and I still prefer them, but I own several other types and pick and choose what I want to shoot. But if I had to pick my most favored pistol, it'd be my "T" model BHP bought around 1969 or so. My wife prefers it too, but it's design does present a unique "problem" to her and it may be the same for others.

For my wife, the simpler the better. Basically ... "rake slide; pull trigger". Or if you prefer to keep the chamber loaded, just "pull trigger". And her need comes from an actual, real world smashed-in front door at 11:00 AM when she was home alone. The simplicity of her Glock 23 prevented her from being harmed. Now, she really likes my BHP, but when she has to go through the motions necessary to get the safety off, a round chambered, the hammer cocked or some combination of the three in a high stress situation, she feels she needs as simply a gun as possible. Who am I to argue that point? She's the only person I know who's actually faced down an intruder.

I say all that to say this, maybe people crave simplicity and opt for that with the double action guns. Maybe they grew up with revolvers and a double action gun provides a comfort zone. Maybe it's all a marketing ploy with the gun makers pushing something new and different and people just got to have the latest gizmo. I don't know. I still drive a manual transmission truck and I love it. My wife can drive it but my daughter, nephew and a whole lot of other people can't and will in fact snicker when they see it's a manual transmission. Some people just got to have the latest and that keeps the makers busy creating more of what people seem to want to spend their money on. Not to mention the power of the gun rag writers who have to push the latest stuff. If nothing "new and different" was produced, many of them would be out of a job. How long can you survive publishing monthly articles year after year on the virtues of the 38 Police Special, the 30-30 Winchester and etc? A bit cynical maybe, but for me it's a marketing reality.

 

[viking499]

If you like the CZ's, which I do, they can easily be converted from a DA/SA gun to a SA gun only.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

I had a bad experience (which I have described in great detail here before and won't get into again) with HK. I saved and bought an HK USP 45 Tactical as a 21st Bday present to myself and it never worked right. So I was an HK fan until I actually owned an HK. Now you couldn't pay me to even think about supporting those uber-snobs and their overpriced polymer paperweights. The P7 gets ruled out by association.

And I understand the supposed "advantages" of the DA/SA trigger mechanism. It just think it's bullcrap. Again, most experienced shooters, if given a choice, go with something else. A long-heavy trigger pull as a safety only makes sense to someone who has never used a gun before. Lawyers think this crap up. And the so-called "2nd strike capability?" Crap. It's like the forward assist on the M16--it's only there to appease people who never use the thing. I was never, not once, instructed to actually use the forward assist on my A4. If it didn't chamber a certain round, I eliminated that round for the equation with the quickness and got back to the business at hand. Forcing a round into the chamber doesn't sound like a good idea to anyone even vagually familiar with what is really going on when the rifle is fired. Likewise, if a round doens't fire when I drop the hammer, I am not taking the time to give it another chance--I am eliminating it from the equation. I kind of wonder how many time DA/SA fanboys have to repeat this crap before they believe it themselves. The "long heavy pull as a safety" and the "2nd strike capability" excuses both reek of desperation to me.

 

[Captain Brown Beard]

DA/SA autos just make no sense to me

Not trying to start a debate here, but the reason they exist is flexibility. We'll use CZ as an example here since it was mentioned already. CZ75 B (The standard model) is DA/SA, and also sports a manual safety. So there are your options. You can carry DA safe off, or SA cocked and locked. Nobody is forcing you to shoot it DA, you can operate (most) DA/SA autos just as you would a standard SA, so I don't see your point with the DA trigger pull.

However, I don't "get" some things either so I guess it's a moot point. A classic example is a decocker on a DA/SA (CZ75 BD) with an external hammer. Why throw all those extra parts into a gun when you can simply pinch the hammer and lower it down the way it's been done for 100+ years?

 

[Skribs]

long heavy pull as a safety

This is also the sentiment behind DAO pistols with no manual safety, and at least they're consistent. However, I prefer the trigger safety - still lets the gun be safe so long as the trigger guard is covered or it is stored in such a way that nothing will get in the trigger guard, and allows for a medium pull.

Why throw all those extra parts into a gun when you can simply pinch the hammer and lower it down the way it's been done for 100+ years?

Because that's not always the safest way of doing things. Decockers do more than just lower the hammer, they also move things out of the way of the primer to prevent accidental discharge. I've had issues on revolvers (luckily pointed downrange) going off when decocking them using the thumb method.

 

[wally]

The P7 gets ruled out by association.

Since its out of production, its also a poor choice if you plan on shooting it a lot as parts availability is uncertain.

What's wrong with a 9mm 1911? if you want sub-compact the new SIG P938 should meed your SAO requirements. Double stack, look at the CZ RAMI, available in aluminum and polymer frame versions.

Guns like the CZ-75B or EAA Witness are essentially SAO with a second strike DA capability as they lack a decocker.

You have more options than the 10mm lover

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Nobody is forcing you to shoot it DA, you can operate (most) DA/SA autos just as you would a standard SA, so I don't see your point with the DA trigger pull.

Point. Though I think it is more accurate to say "some" rather than "most" DA/SA autos still alllow you to carry cocked-and-locked. If it has a safety and can be carried as such, I don't have as much of a problem with them. Again, I did buy an DA/SA HK, and if it had worked as advertised, I'd still be a fan. But I never, not once, fired that thing in DA. It was always carried cocked and locked. I looked at it more as a 1911 with less weight and more capacity. When you consider the SIG, Beretta, CZs, Rugers, and others on the market, I think there are as many decocker only DA/SAs on the market as there are DA/SAs with safeties that can be carried cocked and locked. So call it a half-point.

What's wrong with a 9mm 1911? if you want sub-compact the new SIG P938 should meed your SAO requirements. Double stack, look at the CZ RAMI, available in aluminum and polymer frame versions.

1911s tend to be expensive, esp when you add a rail to the dust cover and the other features I was looking for. At one point I was looking at the Springfield MC Operator and the Kimber Warrior. They both start at $1100 to $1200 and go up from there. The 1911 just seems to be such an old design that putting one together right necessitates some pretty complex machining and fitting, and that means higher prices. I ended up buying a SIG P220SAO instead of either of the aforementioned 1911s because it offered all the features I required (again, ambi safety, rail, and night sights) at hundreds less than a comparable quality 1911 (and the alloy frame made it lighter to boot). I don't see how adding a more obscure frame for a smaller cartridge would do anything to drop the price.

The RAMI looks awesome as a dedicated concealed carry piece. If I do end up with a CZ and like it, I could see a RAMI in my future as a carry piece. But for right now, I am looking for something more dual purpose--something that can be carried concealed, but which I can also slap my Insight M3X on and store on the bedstand. That is why I was trying to avoid sub-compacts. That and the fact that I am six and a half feet tall, wear a size 15 boot, and have similarly sized hands. I don't mean to be so picky, but I don't like the idea of only having three fingers on my handgun.

 

[Captain Brown Beard]

I would agree to that. I never shoot my CZ DA, same with DA revolvers for that matter. On a side note, CZ does make a CZ75 SAO. I dont know about a compact that would fit your criteria though. I know some of the compacts come with alloy frames, but I don't know of one SAO.

I've had issues on revolvers (luckily pointed downrange) going off when decocking them using the thumb method

This is why the "thumb method" is universally accepted as being a generally poor practice, hence why I said "pinch".

 

[smalls]

Why not a Springfield EMP?

 

[daybreak]

as mentioned, there is the CZ 75b SA model that is SAO. And as mentioned, you can order whatever CZ pistol you like from czcustom and they will make it SAO if you wish.

 

[railroader]

If you have about $1000 to spend you can get a sao shadow from cz custom. It will come with competition sights a really nice trigger with short take up and reset. It will be reliable and will hold 18 plus one in 9mm. I have a sp-01 shadow that is set up sao and it is a really nice gun.

http://czcustom.com/cz75shadowsaoblk.aspx

 

[Skribs]

How about FNP 9? From what I remember when I looked at it, you had the option of going up for safety or down for decock. Although it looks from their website now they have the FNX, don't know if its changed.

 

[Auto426]

This is what happens when you let lawyers and beaurocrats have control...you end up with two distinctly different trigger pulls on the same firearm. Awesome Here's another super idea--why don't we put two different accelerator pedals on all our vehicles too?

Except the double/action trigger setup originated in the Walther PP, which was released in 1929. Something tells me lawyers and bureaucrats had nothing to do with that one.

but JMB's true masterpiece even by his own admission, the P35 Hi-Power, is religated to two models in the Browning catalog and surplus pistols probably older than me from Argentina or some place like, buried in the Shotgun News.

As we've gone over in Strum's thread about his video, Browning never even saw a Hi Power, much less proclaim it his masterpiece. He died in 1926, 9 years before the Hi Power became available. Dieudonné Saive is the one responsible for the Hi Power, though he used Browning's work as the basis for his design.

If it's the high pointing nature of Glock's thats bothering you, then why not looking into similar guns that won't point so high. It's not the actual angle of the grip that makes a Glock point high, it's the high cut on the backstrap that allows the rear of the gun to sink down into your hard. Since your fingers stop the trigger guard from sinking into your grip, the gun tends to point high.

Take a look at the S&W M&P series, Springfield XD series, or the Walther PPQ. If you can forgo the light rail, which you should since finding a carry holster setup for a light-equipped gun is extremely difficult, the look into the CZ 75 compact model.

 

[Orion8472]

Springfield Armory EMP would be a good choice for SA "Cocked and Locked" type of carry. . . . if you can find a used one in good shape. New ones are a bit pricey for my taste.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

I actually was considering an SP-01. If I am ever looking for a fullsize piece, I'll strongly consider it again. But whereas the RAMI is too small the SP-01 is too big for what I am looking for. I've never seen one in person, but judging from its specs, it would be a little hard to carry concealed. I don't mean to nitpick here, but going back to the Glocks I am familiar with, I've asked if there is something out there comparable in size to my G19 that can be carried cocked and locked, and has a rail for my M3X so that it can pull double duty as a carry piece or as a bedstand gun. Instead of the G19, people are suggesting options ranging in size from the G26 (RAMI, EMP) to the G17 (SP-01). These might be good guns, but they are either too small to shoot comfortably and put a light on, or too big to carry concealed. Compact, not sub-compact or fullsize...

I really wish CZ would offer the P-02 in this country. It's absurd that they wouldn't. Over 80 million gun owners with over 300 million guns and they don't want to try and capture this market by offering the only 9mm on the market with a rail, night sights, and SAO carry? Whatever.

While we are on the subject, I visit these websites--SIG and CZ's esp--and I wonder, how many times can these guys give a different paint job and grips to the same pistol and still expect to draw an audience? I mean these guys are willing to do anything to get a buck from their guns except think outside the box and actually introduce something different enough to maybe catch someone's attention? Note to SIG--tan, OD, black, rainbow, poke-a-dot'd, striped--if you're not catching people's attention, maybe do something different. Try taking the same SAO mechanism you did with the P220, now put it on the P226, and wha-lah! You don't even have to paint it rainbow colored to catch people's attention. It is very obviously the only $700 SAO 9mm on the market with a rail and night sights. If you build it, they will come. Same with CZ. Enough with the decockers already. Could we please get a P-02 in the house so I can stop drolling on various keyboards? I'm not asking for a unicorn here. We have the technology. We can do this.

Except the double/action trigger setup originated in the Walther PP, which was released in 1929. Something tells me lawyers and bureaucrats had nothing to do with that one.

My sources indicate that there were, in fact, both lawyers and beaurocrats long before 1929. And at any rate, they might not have invented the double action, but they are certainly responsible for popularizing it.

As we've gone over in Strum's thread about his video, Browning never even saw a Hi Power, much less proclaim it his masterpiece. He died in 1926, 9 years before the Hi Power became available. Dieudonné Saive is the one responsible for the Hi Power, though he used Browning's work as the basis for his design.

You've got me there. I remember reading in a gun rag somewhere that even JMB himself commented that he thought the Hi-Power was a superior design to the 1911. I don't remember the exact magazine or author, just that it was a while ago, but stuck with me as an interesting little tid-bit to have.

I have actually considered other striker fired polymer pistols. I've recently began mulling over an M&P9. However, I was not aware FN offered this:

in a model that could be carried cocked and locked. When FN first released FNX, I remember reading a review in which the author stated that only the FNX 45 was going to be released with cocked and locked carry option, what they called the USG safety or something like that. If this pistol is available with the option of cocked and locked carry, it might have just stole the show. FN has been very faithful introducing civilian versions of their military rifles to the US market when they could have gone the HK route and not. I realize HK may now, but in the past, they've been less willing to risk the political pressure than FN, and because of that, I've been wanting to support FN's efforts for a while. I just don't have $3K for a SCAR. One of these babies might be in the future if I can find one and the price is right.

 

[jbauch357]

I must be missing it, but why won't the CZ 75B compact work? It's a compact sized single action only 9mm with a safety, isn't that what you're looking for?

I have the P-01 which is nearly identically sized and it is in no way hard to conceal, no harder than my G19 was (the CZ replaced it). Just get a good holster and keep it cocked and locked (people are screaming at me already how bad of an idea this is). The trigger take up with hammer back is still pretty substantial, just when you get to the sear engagement it's a beautifully shooting ~3lb single action.

 

[beatledog7]

I am looking for a compact 9mm pistol, preferrably with a alloy frame, but I'll consider polymer or steel. It must be capable of being carried cocked and locked.

So far, lots of options.

[QUOTE It must have an ambi safety.[/QUOTE]

Fewer options, but still a fair number.

And it must have both night sights...

An after market accessory for most of the remaining options.

...and a frame rail for mounting a light.

The list now shrinks to mostly full-sized pistols.

I am looking for a barrel length between 3.5 and 4 inches...

But you want a compact or subcompact.

...in a double stack pistol that is big enough to shoot comfortably, but small enough to be concealed if need be.

There is a lot of disagreement on this point, and I think whether one can conceal a double-stack 9mm comfortably mostly depends on that person's manner of carry, manner of dress, and body type.

It may sound like a lot to ask...

Yeah, it is. Some of your criteria are in conflict--compact size and light rail in a metal-framed pistol is not common at all.

Aside from the decocker you dislike, I'd have recommended a Baby Eagle II Semi-Compact.

 

[viking499]

I must be missing it, but why won't the CZ 75B compact work? It's a compact sized single action only 9mm with a safety, isn't that what you're

The 75 compact is da/SA, not SA only.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Things like wearing your pants half-way down around your knees, socks with sandles, two-wheel drive pickup trucks, and DA/SA autos just make no sense to me, and probably never will. I hate-HATE-DA/SA autos. This is what happens when you let lawyers and beaurocrats have control...you end up with two distinctly different trigger pulls on the same firearm.

DA/SA guns were around BEFORE lawyers got blamed for all of the changes.

I think the reason we have DA/SA guns is that a lot of folks 1) aren't comfortable with SA cocked and locked, and 2) most DAO guns have triggers that suck like the great whirlpool.

Every DAO gun I've owned eventually got sold -- including what may be one of the best -- a very nice full size Sphinx 2000. I just couldn't get comfortable with that long trigger pull that seems to be a common trait; that gun has a gloriously smooth trigger, too.

You don't have to like DA/SA guns, and I don't really understand your rant. There are plenty of guns that aren't DA/SA, including a number of very fine striker-fired guns. Some of those DA/SA guns can be operated as though they're SA guns, if needed.

 

[beatledog7]

There's the rub--the OP is looking for compact 9mm in SAO.

There are not many made that way, and that's on purpose.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Conflict? Where?

What are you considering a compact or full-size gun? A 9mm with a 3.5-4 inch barrel seems pretty compact to me. My G19 has a 4 inch barrel. It also has a light rail.

Stacks of pistols exist that meet my size requirements and have light rails. I see no conflict here. I am calling my Glock 19, the CZ P-02, and all similarly sized handguns "compact." If it has a barrel length shorter than 3 inches and a grip I can't stick my pinky on, I generally consider it sub-compact. And if it has a barrel much over 4 inches, I generally consider it a full-size handgun suitable primarily for open duty carry or bedstand use. The P226 is a little big but having owned a P220, I think I could maybe make it work, though I would prefer something like a P229 SAO.

So what, exactly, about wanting a happy medium do you find in disagreement? Plenty of pistols exist that meet my size requirement and have light rails. The list shrinks when I insist on being able to carry it single action. It is my refusal to accept, tolerate, endorse, or in any way support DA/SA autos, or to consider them anything but an abomination and a crime against humanity, that limits my options. All I am doing is wondering aloud why technology we have is not being implemented or why pistols that meet my requirements and already exist are not being offered to the largest gun market on the face of the planet. I mean even if China bought one P-02 for every single person in their military, say somewhere around 4.5-5 million of the things, they still couldn't match the US market if even just one in twenty already gun owning civilians bought one.

So in short, no, pistols of the size I am looking for already exist in droves with light rails, and are both large enough for me to shoot comfortably and small enough to conceal. There is no disagreement or conflict between the size of pistol I am looking for and my requirement that it have a light rail so I can put my M3X on it when it is next to the bedstand. I never said I intended to carry it concealed with the light, just that I would like to have the option of carrying it concealed or putting a light on it and keeping it next to the bed for bumps in the night.

This isn't rocket science. Jesus. Like I said, the technology already exists. I just want to know why it is so scarce in a market so big and supposedly diverse.

 

[beatledog7]

OP, your criteria are reasonable on their face, I agree.

It comes down to economics. Firearm manufacturers and importers know how to measure market demand. If there were a significant US market for a pistol that meets all your criteria--by that I mean sufficient numbers of buyers to make building and/or selling the pistol profitable--then such a pistol would exist in the US market.

If it doesn't exist--well, there's your reason.