Seven High
Member
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2004
- Messages
- 755
Are there any books or manuals that can be recommended on the proper use of saps and blackjacks?
Saps and Jacks
- Thread starter Gordon
- Start date
- Status
T.R.
Member
My brother worked as a bouncer at a biker bar in the 80's. In his back pocket he carried a 12 ounce slap jack. This little jewel would take the fight out of a rowdy biker but no permanent injury.
TR
TR
Broken-Tengu
Member
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2009
- Messages
- 20
These look sweet ! Wish trhey weren't illegal in Illinois . I actually saw one of these in action during my time in Germany as a L.E. Explorer .
OP
OP
Gordon
Member
While I fully agree with the medical professional opinion and never thought about current MRI ability to preserve formally invisable evidence " hitting suspects from behind while they were unaware because it make the overall take-down easier. " I just can't help of thinking of the new improved police takedown technique which you see all over the internet the last 10 years of a group of officers pounding someone flat by pummeling and kicking and striking to "make the take down easier" Seems those cops of bygone year with the sneaky preemptive moderate strike on transgressors is more humane and not being filmed to get multimillion dollar payouts. Likely not used on mouthy pregnant woman ect. either! Just my opinion.
Deltaboy1984
Member
They were effective tools that were abused by a few.
ApacheCoTodd
member
A nasty bit of kit for such high flying company as posted above.
Just found this in a box of stuff from an estate my wife did of a former prison guard.
It's ugly, it's utilitarian... it's rubber but the slightest - and I mean slightest whap to my thigh hurts like hell.
Can't begin to think of it being applied to my skull.
No tellin' what the crap all over it is... prison paint, clown/mime make-up (c'mon, you know they deserve it!
) who knows.
Just found this in a box of stuff from an estate my wife did of a former prison guard.
It's ugly, it's utilitarian... it's rubber but the slightest - and I mean slightest whap to my thigh hurts like hell.
Can't begin to think of it being applied to my skull.
No tellin' what the crap all over it is... prison paint, clown/mime make-up (c'mon, you know they deserve it!
) who knows.Attachments
OP
OP
Gordon
Member
Very kewl, thanks! 
celem
Member
My grandfather was in the Navy during Spanish American war. Two items that I inherited from him were two blackjacks. I need to dig them out.
bromdenlong
Member
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2006
- Messages
- 106
Like Seven High, I would like to know what books or other instructional materials you knowledgeable sap users would recommend. Also, where can we buy the best ones?
RustyShackelford
member
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2006
- Messages
- 4,018
Marc "Animal" Macyoung
Former bar bouncer & "cooler": Marc "Animal" MacYoung wrote a guide to ending violent confrontations & disputes. He covers non lethal weapons, holds, warning signs, come-alongs, etc. His book is on Amazon.com .
You can also look for non lethal weapon guides/books on www.paladin-press.com & www.deltapress.com .
I've done bouncer work & bar security. Watching out for danger signs & de-escalation are good tactics. Having mature, properly trained security staff helps too.
Former bar bouncer & "cooler": Marc "Animal" MacYoung wrote a guide to ending violent confrontations & disputes. He covers non lethal weapons, holds, warning signs, come-alongs, etc. His book is on Amazon.com .
You can also look for non lethal weapon guides/books on www.paladin-press.com & www.deltapress.com .
I've done bouncer work & bar security. Watching out for danger signs & de-escalation are good tactics. Having mature, properly trained security staff helps too.
Deltaboy1984
Member
MAS got a book on impact weapons .I got my copy off Amazon.
Thirty-five years a big city officer....started carrying a slapper in 1964 when I first hired on because everyone else carried one, went to a PR24 when the Department issued them, then to an ASP when they decided that was the way to go. Never used any of them except to break a window or two when necessary.
First off, OUCH!! Those things have got to hurt.
Not as bad as getting a dogpile beatdown from Johnny Law, but still.
Those are some nice saps and blackjacks.
If I were a cop, I'd rather use those than shock toys.
Tasers/stun guns don't work on everyone.
Not all of us are bothered by/scared of/subdued by electric shock.
And, shooting suspects should be a last resort.
I'd imagine that thick, dense rubber sap would hurt like the Dickens.
Wonder how well polyurethane would work?
Would be easy enough to make a plaster mold and cast some.
Many years ago (before, during, and after Lexan hit the market) my dad worked for a plastics supplier.
Several Atlanta cops had him make short jacks/headknockers about 12" long with a lanyard from Teflon rod, about 1.5" diameter.
They told him it didn't leave a mark.
I never quite believed that.
I always figured they wanted it because of the weight/density of Teflon.
Those 12" long Teflon jacks were quite heavy for their size.
IIRC, I still have one somewhere.
My dad had two that he had made for himself.
He gave one to me.
I still have it, if I haven't used it to make Teflon machine bearings.
Not as bad as getting a dogpile beatdown from Johnny Law, but still.
Those are some nice saps and blackjacks.
If I were a cop, I'd rather use those than shock toys.
Tasers/stun guns don't work on everyone.
Not all of us are bothered by/scared of/subdued by electric shock.
And, shooting suspects should be a last resort.
I'd imagine that thick, dense rubber sap would hurt like the Dickens.
Wonder how well polyurethane would work?
Would be easy enough to make a plaster mold and cast some.
Many years ago (before, during, and after Lexan hit the market) my dad worked for a plastics supplier.
Several Atlanta cops had him make short jacks/headknockers about 12" long with a lanyard from Teflon rod, about 1.5" diameter.
They told him it didn't leave a mark.
I never quite believed that.
I always figured they wanted it because of the weight/density of Teflon.
Those 12" long Teflon jacks were quite heavy for their size.
IIRC, I still have one somewhere.
My dad had two that he had made for himself.
He gave one to me.
I still have it, if I haven't used it to make Teflon machine bearings.
Deltaboy1984
Member
I wish I had a good one.
RustyShackelford
member
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2006
- Messages
- 4,018
Mac-v-sog, lrrp.....
I read a few non fiction books & talked to a few SE Asia combat veterans who said many SF & SEAL units would use a sap or if needed a big stick or tree limb to lay out a enemy guard before killing them or shooting them with a surpressed pistol.
It was considered quieter & more efficient since the VC or NVA could scream or gurgle.
The LRRP(long range recon patrol) & MAC-V-SOG(special ops) used these techniques often to avoid hassles.
Today, many "tier one" types use "laser dazers" . They confuse & disorient the subject then they can be dispersed quietly.
I read a few non fiction books & talked to a few SE Asia combat veterans who said many SF & SEAL units would use a sap or if needed a big stick or tree limb to lay out a enemy guard before killing them or shooting them with a surpressed pistol.
It was considered quieter & more efficient since the VC or NVA could scream or gurgle.
The LRRP(long range recon patrol) & MAC-V-SOG(special ops) used these techniques often to avoid hassles.
Today, many "tier one" types use "laser dazers"
. They confuse & disorient the subject then they can be dispersed quietly.
sgt127
Member
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2003
- Messages
- 2,113
No affiliation or personal knowledge, but these guys have a good rep.
http://d3protection.com/17.html
http://d3protection.com/17.html
Deltaboy1984
Member
Good looking slaps and jacks . Finger slaps were used to open hand box someone upside the head. The old sarge could shut up the bar loudmouth with just a open handed slap across the face.
*Kemosabe*
Member
Beware
Ain’t necessarily so. My partner and I took a perp into custody, but then a crowd of 20+ decided that we were not going to take him to jail. They surrounded us and a fight ensued and because of the lack of room our PR-24s were not the way to go. Putting our 10” slappers to work we took the fight out of several by breaking jaws and knocking out teeth and plain ole knocking out. I hit one of them in the middle of the forehead putting him in a coma for three days. It was touch and go during that time, but he survived.
A month later when he appeared for arraignment he definitely had some problems with comprehension and a continuance was granted until such time he was able to assist in his defense. That really never happened and the SAO made a plea deal with him.
The broken jaws will heal, but missing teeth and an addled brain were pretty much permanent. Blackjacks can kill at almost any time and a slapper can maim and easily kill given the right circumstances. You do what you have to do to survive, but if your intent is absolutely not to kill then a slapper is not for you.
Ain’t necessarily so. My partner and I took a perp into custody, but then a crowd of 20+ decided that we were not going to take him to jail. They surrounded us and a fight ensued and because of the lack of room our PR-24s were not the way to go. Putting our 10” slappers to work we took the fight out of several by breaking jaws and knocking out teeth and plain ole knocking out. I hit one of them in the middle of the forehead putting him in a coma for three days. It was touch and go during that time, but he survived.
A month later when he appeared for arraignment he definitely had some problems with comprehension and a continuance was granted until such time he was able to assist in his defense. That really never happened and the SAO made a plea deal with him.
The broken jaws will heal, but missing teeth and an addled brain were pretty much permanent. Blackjacks can kill at almost any time and a slapper can maim and easily kill given the right circumstances. You do what you have to do to survive, but if your intent is absolutely not to kill then a slapper is not for you.
Do the 3 and 4 layer saps have lead shot in them, or are they just leather with a flat spring inside?
I'd imagine nailing someone in the head with a sap could easily cause dain bramage.
It's like hitting them in the fuse box with a dead-blow hammer. OUCH!!
What is the all-around most useful size sap?
I'd imagine nailing someone in the head with a sap could easily cause dain bramage.
It's like hitting them in the fuse box with a dead-blow hammer. OUCH!!
What is the all-around most useful size sap?
Jenrick
Member
When I first started in LE our issued pants had a sap pocket, sadly they were already off the approved list however. I personally think they land right in the same area as a baton/straight stick/PR/etc. They are an impact tool, that when used on the appropriate target areas have a minimal risk of causing permanent or lasting damage. However much like other impact tools, improper use or poor aim, can cause serious injury or death.
-Jenrick
-Jenrick
OP
OP
Gordon
Member
So Kemosabe (which really meant mi no sabe by Tonto which means in Spanish = stupid) ; you telling me instead of the serious injuries you handed out to a mob of 20 against 2 out to kill you easily you should have done anything different? Like shooting into them?
In that situation you were very damn generous IMHO and they deserved what they got !
Bottom line don't mob officers doing their duty unless you want to get badly hurt or dead. :banghead: AND once again sap and jacks WORKED and were less than lethal !
In that situation you were very damn generous IMHO and they deserved what they got !
Bottom line don't mob officers doing their duty unless you want to get badly hurt or dead. :banghead: AND once again sap and jacks WORKED and were less than lethal !
Last edited:
sgt127
Member
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2003
- Messages
- 2,113
For example, the Buchmeir 4 ply Texan slapper has no spring. The layers of leather add stiffness. And the lead is molded in a flat tear drop shape. The two inner layers are cut to fit it and the whole thing glued and sewn together.
The blackjack has a coil spring and the lead cast onto it.
The Denver slap, being two ply, has a flat spring and the lead cast on the end.
The blackjack has a coil spring and the lead cast onto it.
The Denver slap, being two ply, has a flat spring and the lead cast on the end.
JackDaniel
Member
I saw a catalog that listed a sap baseball cap. I guess that would give you the option of grabbing the visor and either tipping your hat or knocking someone out. You know... it just might work!
- Status
