SBR an AR lower... is it worth it?

[Theohazard]

No, I don't recommend calling them to get answers like this. The people who answer the phone at the NFA branch are notorious for giving out bad information. I've gotten different answers depending on when I called and who I talked to.

Instead, it's better to go by rulings, their website, and other more official things.

 

[pjeski]

Calling "the branch" to ask them questions about the law is about as smart as asking a cop about the law. As Theo said, you'll get wildly different answers, and they aren't binding. (Or even likely correct). If an ATF agent tells you something is legal, that will not help you one bit in court. Even the tech branch letters, while informative, are not legally binding. Read the law for yourself, and if you have trouble understanding it, have an attorney explain it to you. And then still proceed with caution.

Unless the varminator can cite the law that requires you to inform the ATF of changes to the configuration of your SBR or other NFA weapon, his advice to do so (based on his calls to ATF) is worth not quite the time you spent reading it.

 

[Acera]

One more reason to not SBR an AR. You begin to make questionable and cheap choices in rifle cases.

Gone are the days of Blackhawk tactical cases, with all the pockets made from super strong material in sexy black.

You will begin to think, I need to hide this darn thing. Gotta make it look like it is not what it is. So off to the store you go and pick up inexpensive alternatives saving you money.

Then your friends ask if you starting to play stupid ball games and work out again as they see it next to your desk chair. This leads to the embarrassing conversation about how you would like to avoid heat stroke at all costs, and your exercise money is better spent on 12oz curls and chicken wings. Plus you lay awake at night thinking about your decision to prostitute yourself out to some sports company that you haven't had a love for in decades by sporting it's logo.

Yeah, it is in the case in the top picture.

Give up the thought, it ain't worth it.




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[dogtown tom]

Any additional upper which results as an SBR IS a permanent modification, as it produces an SBR not in the characteristics of the original applied in the Form 1....

100% wrong.
Virtually no modification to an AR is "permanent". In fact install a 16" bbl and you can take it across state lines without ATF permission.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

A simple call to the BATFE NFA branch (304) 616-4500 will clear up all of your questions, and get you a few corrections to the misinformation here.

On the Form 1, in the context of an AR-15 platform SBR with various uppers, you only insert ONE combination of cartridge, barrel length, and overall length. Once the paperwork comes back, you ARE required to notify in writing any modification to the NFA Firearm which changes one or all of those 3. It's not an approval process, just a notification process. We have the luxury of the honor code in this system - nobody comes out to check on these modifications as long as you don't deserve a housecall - but if a guy gets caught with an SBR in a form which isn't listed on the Form 1 and which wasn't recorded in notification, there's some hot water to be found in. The pain in the butt part is that if you have multiple uppers, technically, you have to send word every time you swap. It's a little grey, in that if you convert it to a non-NFA configuration with the intent to convert it back, a guy doesn't have to notify, but I tend to do so anyway. There's also a little grey in that a guy could convert it to a non-NFA configuration, at which point you're free to transport it across state lines without approval, bring it back and convert it back. I'm not complaining, as the ambiguity tends to favor our side, and modification to the law to better clarify some of these nuances would most certainly simply end in greater restriction overall - which isn't what any of us would want.

Pretty much wrong on all counts.

Mike

 

[Varminterror]

Interpretations change, precedents get set, and it's the enforcement agents - you know, those fallible folks you're talking about - which make the arrests for NFA violations. Whether you want to pick nits about requirements vs. requests (suggestions), when you change the configuration such your Form 1 or 4 no longer your NFA firearm, all for the sake of avoiding an email (since we don't have to fax any longer), I'd much rather comply with the request than end up fighting a federal firearms charge based on hope I don't become a precedent. Being "right" when it comes to an ambiguous law doesn't come free, and may not come easy.

Travel at your own risk. The agency is made up of people. I'd rather work with the people than rely on the paper which those people reserve the right to change at any time.

 

[bikemutt]

I wonder if there's a publicly accessible record of folks being arrested, charged and convicted of NFA violations? Not thinking about those who knowingly, or accidentally, construct illegal SBRs, SBSs etc, just law abiding citizens who either purchase, or make, a stamp-paid NFA weapon, then run afoul of the applicable laws.

In any event, the AR15 platform and it's derivatives do present a less than clear case for the one gun-one form NFA believers. I'm sure it was simpler when making an SBR involved a hacksaw and a crowning tool.

I guess it comes down to when does a change to an SBR for instance, make it more of an SBR? If an AR15 lower has a 10" 22 cal upper on it, or a 10" 30 cal upper, or a 10" 45 cal upper, it's still an SBR. If I'm free to change upper receivers on a non-NFA AR15 by caliber, barrel length and overall length, as long as it doesn't venture into NFA space, I don't see why the government would apply such constraints to NFA weapons.

All bets are off of course if someone robs a liquor store with an AR15 SBR, that upper better match the original form, or else

 

[dogtown tom]

Interpretations change, precedents get set, and it's the enforcement agents - you know, those fallible folks you're talking about - which make the arrests for NFA violations. Whether you want to pick nits about requirements vs. requests (suggestions), when you change the configuration such your Form 1 or 4 no longer your NFA firearm, all for the sake of avoiding an email (since we don't have to fax any longer), I'd much rather comply with the request than end up fighting a federal firearms charge based on hope I don't become a precedent. Being "right" when it comes to an ambiguous law doesn't come free, and may not come easy.......

Using this theory means you might not want to get out of bed in the morning for fear that evil ATF is going to pounce on you.
Get a grip on reality, educate yourself on ATF regulations and rulings and go about your day.
Your suggestions are nonsense at best and ignorance based fearmongering at worst.

Travel at your own risk. The agency is made up of people. I'd rather work with the people than rely on the paper which those people reserve the right to change at any time.

"Those people" cannot change regulations "at any time". You need to educate yourself on how ATFand other Federal agencies develop and implement regulatory changes to Federal law. It takes MONTHS and sometimes YEARS to make the simplest changes. They aren't done in secret as a public comment period is required.

 

[dogtown tom]

I wonder if there's a publicly accessible record of folks being arrested, charged and convicted of NFA violations?

Of course there are, Federal court decisions aren't top secret.

Not thinking about those who knowingly, or accidentally, construct illegal SBRs, SBSs etc, just law abiding citizens who either purchase, or make, a stamp-paid NFA weapon, then run afoul of the applicable laws.

This makes no sense. If they are "law abiding" they aren't going to "run afoul".

In any event, the AR15 platform and it's derivatives do present a less than clear case for the one gun-one form NFA believers. I'm sure it was simpler when making an SBR involved a hacksaw and a crowning tool.

Huh? The law doesn't become confusing just because the firearm is an AR15 platform firearm.

I guess it comes down to when does a change to an SBR for instance, make it more of an SBR?

It doesn't become "more of an SBR".

When the change to an NFA firearm is permanent, ATF REQUESTS, but does NOT REQUIRE that you notify them. The reason ATF requests notification of changes is to avoid problems if you decide to sell that firearm......they want to have the current Form 4 match the new Form 4.
Example: You buy a factory Colt 6933 (Commando 11.5" bbl), it transfers from Colt to your dealer on a Form 3 that shows the factory 11.5" bbl length. Your dealer fills out and submits a Form 4 to transfer the gun to you. ATF will return the stamped Form 4.

That Form 4 shows the firearm as having an 11.5" bbl. If you decide to change the bbl length to 7" (or 10.5", 12.5" or 14.5")........knock yourself out. Nothing in federal law prohibits you from doing this as THE GUN IS ALREADY REGISTERED WITH ATF NFA BRANCH AS AN SBR. But if you decide to sell that 7" Colt AR, you'll list the bbl length on your new Form 4 as what it actually is.....a 7" bbl. ATF gets the Form 4, they'll kick it back because the new Form 4 doesn't match the information on the original form 4. Same would apply to caliber or OAL. This makes notification of a change well before your sale a good idea. Or at the very least a letter with the Form 4 explaining the difference on barrel lengths.

If an AR15 lower has a 10" 22 cal upper on it, or a 10" 30 cal upper, or a 10" 45 cal upper, it's still an SBR. If I'm free to change upper receivers on a non-NFA AR15 by caliber, barrel length and overall length, as long as it doesn't venture into NFA space, I don't see why the government would apply such constraints to NFA weapons.

They don't and they have been saying that for decades.

All bets are off of course if someone robs a liquor store with an AR15 SBR, that upper better match the original form, or else

There is no requirement to have the firearm EVER match it's current configuration with the Form 4.