Scale needed with dippers?

[Squeaky Wheel]

I had purchased a Lee Anniversary kit and had heard that it had everything (or nearly everything) needed to get started reloading. The kit comes with a balance beam scale and Lee's Perfect Powder measure. I bought Lee dies and the Lee dies come with dippers for the most common charging volume for the caliber. I just can't seem to put any trust in the Perfect Powder measure -- it looks and feels too cheap. The instructions for use of the plastic micrometer also don't quite seem to work with the unit that I have. At this point, I've decided to not use it because I don't have any faith in it. So, I recently tried to use the balance beam scale. It's appears to be a fine product and I can work it, but it appears that using it for reloading is far too slow and cumbersome.

Now I'm thinking about simply using the Lee dippers and not fooling with a scale. I don't plan to tweak any loads, as I just shoot at paper targets for stress relief (for the fun of shooting). Would I have any need for the scale at all if I stick with the dippers and I develop a consistent dipping method?

 

[rcmodel]

To find out what the dippers actually are dipping.
They won't be dipping what Lee says they are dipping I betcha!!

And whether you have in fact, become a consistent dipper dipper.

As for the measure?
Use the scales to set the measure, then use it.

It will be way more consistent throw to throw then the best dipper can dip evey dip!

rc

 

[ljnowell]

To find out what the dippers actually are dipping.

They won't be dipping what Lee says they are dipping I betcha!!

As for the measure?
Use the scales to set the measure, then use it.


It will be way more consistent throw to throw then the best dipper can dip!

rc

What he said. All of it.

 

[RustyFN]

My perfect powder measure has been very accurate and consistant. To answer your question I would use a scale didn't matter what I was using for the powder charge. I wouldn't weigh every charge but I would weigh at least the first 10 to make sure it's a safe charge and that I am dipping consistant.

Edit: damn I type slow.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I don't know a lot about reloading, but I have read a lot and picked the minds of those who do.

Using the dippers is all about consistent technique...yes, there is technique to moving the dipper through the powder...and is much more labour intensive than using the powder measure.

Funny thing, I know a couple of Bench Rest shooter, the most OCD shooting folks I know, and they always use a powder measure...and hardly ever weigh their charges. But, they have the most consistently repetitive technique for running a powder measure you'll ever see

 

[NeuseRvrRat]

no faith in the perfect powder measure, but you trust that Lee scale?

 

[Squeaky Wheel]

no faith in the perfect powder measure, but you trust that Lee scale?

Yes, because all of the documentation and instructions for the scale make sense to me. The instructions for the perfect powder measure (regarding the micrometer) don't seem to match up with what I have at all.

 

[rcmodel]

regarding the micrometer)

Disregard the micrometer.

It is no more likely to be right according to the book then the dippers are.

Use it with the scale to set it and be done with it.

The only thing the micrometer on a powder measure is good for is returning to the same approximate setting the next time you change back to an old load again.
Then you whip out the scales again and see how close you are.

rc

 

[Squeaky Wheel]

Use it with the scale to set it and be done with it.

Ding! I believe the light bulb just went off. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're suggesting to use the scale to set and calibrate the powder measure and (once it's set correctly) just use the powder measure? That would sure beat using a balance beam scale for each and every charge.

 

[Otto]

Now I'm thinking about simply using the Lee dippers and not fooling with a scale.

You have that reversed.

 

[gdcpony]

Ding! I believe the light bulb just went off. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're suggesting to use the scale to set and calibrate the powder measure and (once it's set correctly) just use the powder measure? That would sure beat using a balance beam scale for each and every charge.

Yep, you have it right. I have done that with mine for years. I now have two scales and not a single dipper. I do still use both the Lee scale and powder measure I first started with back in the 90's. Never had a reason to move on as they did what they were supposed to. I just never used the instructions. LOL

 

[BYJO4]

I don't care for dippers but if I used them, I would weigh each charge. I prefer a good measure that drops consistently once set. I weigh the charges til properly adjusted and then every 10th to 25th round there after on pistol loads (I weigh every rifle charge for max accuracy).

 

[fireflyfather]

Listen to rcmodel on this.

I do exactly the same thing. Ignore the micrometer except as the grossest guide to getting adjusted back to a new charge weight when you shift powders/cartridges.

Throw-Weigh-Adjust repeatedly until you get it right.

Weigh several charges before you go into production mode.

Be mindful that as the powder measure starts to empty, it may throw a little light. I try to keep mine at least 1/3 full. Also, consistent technique is also important with the powder measure. For example, I tap the measure on top twice with my fingernail at the top of the stroke to shake loose any stuck powder, and again on the bottom. I do this each time. It isn't necessary, but if I do it sometimes, and not others, my charge weights will be less consistent.

It is immensely faster than using dippers and/or weighing each charge. For my AR I don't weigh each charge, and I am getting 1.25" groups at 100 yards using crappy FMJ bullets (can't get consistent OAL) and no free-float. That's not bad accuracy, considering, and I can produce a lot of ammo even with my single-stage press if I don't have to weigh each load.

 

[noylj]

If you use Lee's data, you don't need a balance/scale. These loads are all chosen to be starting or near-starting loads and you can NOT get enough powder in the dipper to come even close to max.
Obviously, once you leave Lee's specific dipper loads, then you will need a balance/scale.
Dipping is an excellent way to measure powder and you should, if you are consistent, be able to stay within 0.2gn and, with practice, achieve 0.1gn variations. This is in line with EVERY volumetric powder measure I have used.
I just wish that Lee had some other small cc dipper for more pistol loads.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Dipper/Scale/Measure

The Lee Scale

is accurate as any on the market. 0.1 grain. But harder to use than some others. You have to use a vernier, which is becoming a lost art and the Lee vernier is not that easy to read as many others I have used. Put the scale on a solidly mounted shelf in good light at eye level for easiest operation and best results.

Lee dippers

As accurate as any powder measure if you use good technique. Powder measures are easier to master. Dippers by their nature are not adjustable for in-between amounts, but you can get around that by dribbling a little wood glue in the bottom or stuffing with a cardboard disk or something.

Dippers cannot damage powder granules and you will never run them out of powder without knowing it.

Powder measure

from Lee seems flimsy, what with its plastic parts and such, but once it is worn in (many have complained that the first few powder drops vary too much) but a little graphite coating and wearing makes everything right. Don't confuse light weight with lightweight nor inexpensive with cheap.

I don't use the Lee Perfect Powder Measure myself but have read many threads on it and figured out what I believe and what I don't. Use the search function to find the threads. I mostly use the Lee Auto-Disk, but that is irrelevant to your interests.

The dippers and powder measures bot mete by volume and there is no theoretical difference between them.

Lee's naming conventions and instruction sheets leave a lot to be desired but the operation of the gear is pretty easy to figure out.

Lost Sheep

 

[Hondo 60]

Squeaky Wheel,

Listen you're dealing with a HIGHLY FLAMMABLE substance.
Guessing at the charge weight is about as unsmart as it comes.

You're dealing with a substance that can & will maim if not out right kill.
I'm not trying to scare you, just strongly suggesting that you be careful.

Whether he's meant to or not, rcmodel has taught all of us here a lot.
99.999% of the time his advise is spot on (including post #2).

Please stay safe.

 

[Sam1911]

As for the measure?
Use the scales to set the measure, then use it.

You nailed it in post 9.

The Lee scale works pretty much just fine. It may feel cheap, but it does work.

Throw a charge with the powder measure, weigh it, adjust the measure, weigh again, etc. until it throws the charge you want. Then run with it. Double check a throw in the scale every 10 rds. or so to make sure you're still being consistent.

If you want to get precise, get a "trickler" and throw your charges a bit light, weigh each one and trickle in powder to bring it up to the exact weight.

 

[FROGO207]

Good advice so far. Also glad you are figuring things out. Me I will use the measure sometimes and other times a dipper is the best fit. The trouble is the dippers are a certain volume and not always what you want. Now I use old brass and by adding a wire handle and adjusting the internal volume I get a custom dipper. First I weigh a charge and put it into an appropriately sized case to see how much it fills the empty case. Then I just take a once fired brass and add some epoxy to reduce the volume inside the casing. If you add too much just use a drill bit slightly smaller than the casing and twisting it by hand to slowly remove epoxy until the weight is what you want. The beauty of using a dipper is once it is set up it will never go out of adjustment. I then write on a paper strip what it is used for/load and tape it to my handle. I have heard some use wax to fill the casing but I feel the epoxy the best as the propellant will not stick to it or it will not fall out or crumble. I find a wide mouth shallow container and a dipper used with a consistent technique is the best way to charge cases these days.

 

[hentown]

I've been reloading for a number of years and have used Lee's scale. I'm currently getting good results from a $20 Frankford Arsenal electronic scale. Not being sure if I wanted to reload, I started out with a Lee Anniversary Kit. Gave the powder measure away, but still have the press and scale. Don't/won't ever use the dippers.

 

[flashhole]

I must be the only guy on the planet who likes and uses dippers on a regular basis. I use the same dipping technique load-to-load and have measured enough of them to know they are as consistent as I am. The load data is for reference and you should always check measure the dipper charge to ensure you don't get in a bad situation. Once I found my Optimum Charge Range I proved minor variations in powder charge don't mean anything.

 

[jmr40]

Use the scales.

The dippers can be accurate if your technique is good, but If you get good accuracy it will be more luck than skill.

The problem with the dippers is that one size dipper may give you a load that is just barely over the minimum starting load. The next size up may be over the max listed charge.

By using the scales you can adjust the powder charge to get both optimum accuracy and speed. My most accurate 30-06 load is right at 2900 fps with 165 gr bullets using 58.5 gr of H-4350. The closest dipper only measures out 55.5 gr of powder. Going up to a larger dipper size is over a max charge. The 55.5 gr charge is less accurate, and about 200 fps slower.

 

[bogon48]

Given that you have Lee equipment, you might want to take a look at the "Modern Reloading Guide, 2nd Edition" by Richard Lee. It fills in lots of gaps in their instruction sheets. Lee devotes a chapter to measuring powder, and in it he talks about dippers as well as the other measuring tools they sell. He feels they can create very safe, precise loads and describes a dipping technique where you drop the dipper into the powder so it flows into the mouth to fill, and then strike off the excess with a business card.

I started with a Lee LoadAll in the 80's and have used and made dippers, like some of the other guys here. Then I moved over to a Lyman 55 powder measure, which is what I use most of the time. Like Sam1911, I use a scale to adjust the index to throw my load. Then I'll sample and weigh some loads and move forward. With the 55, I also use a trickler and scale when working with extruded powders like Varget. I can't get them to meter with the same precision as ball and flake.

 

[cberge8]

Also, if you use you're scale to set your powder measure/verify dipper accuracy, it is a good idea to weigh a charge every so often just to be on the safe side.

I also start from scratch when switching to a new can of powder, as density of the same powder can vary lot-to-lot.

 

[bendorfold]

dipping

describes a dipping technique where you drop the dipper into the powder so it flows into the mouth to fill, and then strike off the excess with a business card

Here's a youtube of the technique bogon48 mentioned. I like a business card better than the popsicle stick in the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp1YG-KLN8c

 

[RandyP]

Add me to the list of those who have had very consistent results with my Lee dispensers - I started with the PPM and now use their Pro Auto disk on my turret.

I have never even bothered to read the powder conversion charts that came with the disks, scoops or micrometer setting on the PPM. I too use the trial and weigh method to find the disk size or micrometer setting that meets my needs. Once set or the disk hole size chosen I have found the resulting throws to be very consistent.