Schofield revolver clones

[Coyote3855]

I might be interested in owning a schofield copy. Like a Uberti for example.

How is the nickel on these? I've never owned a gun finished in nickel and am concerned of its durability. I don't want it to chip or bubble like old motorcycle chrome does.......

Are these guns heirloom quality shooters?
I never even held a schofield, they look pretty blocky in comparison to a SAA they look like a brick!

I don't know about the durability of nickel finish on currently produced firearms. In the black powder era, nickel was considered more durable and corrosion resistant than blued finishes. To the point that some blued firearms demand a premium in price over nickel because relatively fewer blued ones were produced.

I bought one of the very first Schofield replicas imported to the United States, I believe the importer was Cimarron but don't recall for sure. The latch was defective on my example and others. The firearm would with some regularity open when fired. I returned it for a refund. I believe the issue was solved and the replicas now available are good to go. But I haven't got around to buying another one.

 

[Jim Watson]

Did Schofield not get royalties?

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Did Schofield not get royalties?

Yes, he did. $.50 on every gun sold.

It's a long story, it goes on for four pages in Roy Jinks' book History of Smith and Wesson.

I will try to shorten it a bit.

Major George W. Schofield began tinkering with the American Model design as early as 1870.

Let me quote Roy briefly: "Major Schofield's interest in the Model 3 began immediately after the announcement of the new model." (I assume that would be the American model.) "It is speculated that his brother, General John M. Schofield, who was the president of the Small Arms Board in the spring of 1870, told him of this new Smith and Wesson revolver after a sample had been examined by the U.S.Army. Regardless of how Major Schofield heard about the new Smith & Wesson, his response was immediate. He wrote to the factory requesting one of the new models and informed them of his interest in becoming an agent for them in Western Kansas and Colorado."

Roy goes on to say that S&W was amenable to dealing with Schofield. They sent him one revolver and 500 cartridges, all at no cost. (again I assume the American model because of the time frame)

S&W went on to tell Schofield they would send him "any quantity you may be able to dispose of from time to time at $15 each." They went on to tell him he was the only agent to get such a good price, other dealers ordering at least 100 at a time were paying $17 for each revolver.

Roy goes on to say that S&W was going to "press their sales campaign to interest the military in the new model." They were happy to deal with anyone who could help them get a military contract. By the end of 1870, Schofield had sold 62 American models. S&W hoped these sales would give the American model exposure to military personnel, which would help them secure a contract. Bear in mind, this was 1870, three years before Colt secured contracts with the Army for the Single Action Army, and five years before the Schofield model was first produced.

Schofield immediately began making improvements to the American model, he obtained his patent on his improved latch design on June 20, 1871. The prototypes were done at Schofield's expense, using sources other than the factory to do the work. He wrote to the factory asking them to provide several revolvers that used his improvement, but although the factory expressed interest in his latch design, they were up their eyeballs making Russian models for sale overseas. S&W said they would provide parts for revolvers for him, suggesting he get the work done himself. Schofield had several guns made up incorporating his new latch.

On April 22, 1873 he was granted a second patent, covering an improvement to the ejection system. Schofield had several more revolvers made up using this improvement, which he tested extensively.

S&W had been actively trying to get a contract with the government, and submitted several improved models for testing.

In mid 1872 the Ordnance Department was investigating the Colt design. In July of 1873 the Ordnance Department announced the adoption of the Colt.

The Ordnance Department agreed to a new test for the S&W revolver, and in December 1873, now Colonel Schofield visited the War Department to inform them of his improvements of the S&W revolver. Quoting Roy again: "The guns were tested and the Ordnance Department implied that the Schofield design was equal or superior to other revolvers tested. (Italics are mine).

On September 8, 1874 S&W signed a contract for 3,000 "Schofield" revolvers at $13.50 each. 3000 revolvers were delivered to Springfield Armory on July 12, 1875. A second contract for another 3,000 revolvers had already been signed by this time. This group is known to collectors as the 2nd Model, the main difference is the barrel latch was rounded off, and the top knurled for a more positive grip. These improvements were at Schofield's suggestion. One more group of 1,000 revolvers was delivered to the Army on April 11, 1877.

In all, including a few sold commercially, there were 8,969 Schofield Model revolvers produced.

Civilian models were produced in both blue and nickel plated finishes. They sold on the civilian market for $17.50.

Schofield received a royalty of $.50, but I am unclear if that was only on the civilian models, or on all the Schofield revolvers produced.

 

[Aim1]

Sadly, George Schofield took his own life with one of his patented revolvers in 1882.

Why?

 

[Onty]

Why?

Very, very sad, see here https://www.quotev.com/story/10085946/The-Tragedy-of-George-Schofield .

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

I was in a local shop yesterday and they had one of the Series 2000 Schofields on the used shelf. These were the Schofields that Smith & Wesson produced from 2000 through 2002. I forget how many were made, I don't have my reference books handy.

Anyway, I gave it a good look. This one had a separate spring loaded firing pin mounted in the frame, rather than the hammer mounted firing pins of the originals.

This is the hammer of an original Schofield, like all the S&W Top Breaks, the firing pin was integral with the hammer.






These revolvers were chambered for the original 45 Schofield cartridge, not 45 Colt or 44-40 like some of the replicas.

To me, the interesting thing is there was virtually no gas collar on the front of the cylinder at all. I recall that when these came out S&W said they were designed for modern cartridges, not cartridges loaded with Black Powder. Here is a photo I grabbed of one off the web. That teeny tiny gas collar says to me this model would tend to bind up pretty quickly with cartridges loaded with Black Powder, despite the success some on this board have had with the replicas and Black Powder. The originals (those manufactured between 1875 and 1877) had a sizeable bushing on the front of the cylinder. Looking back, I wish I had had a ruler with me and could have measured the length of the cylinder. Probably longer than the 1 7/16" original cylinders, which is probably why, just like with the replicas, there is a minimum gas collar on the front of the cylinder.






Here is what the gas collar on the front of the cylinder or one of the "original ones" looked like.






I seem to recall the shop wanted somewhere in the vicinity of $2700 for it, which is probably a pretty reasonable price.

But I have a couple of originals, I didn't pay much more than that for one of them, and since I would only shoot it with Black Powder I handed it back to the owner, after thanking him for allowing me to inspect it.

(He was not real familiar with the model, I had to tell him to set the hammer to half cock before attempting to unlatch the barrel. No aspersions on him, he is a very nice guy, just not very familiar with 'antique' revolvers.)

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I bought one of the very first Schofield replicas imported to the United States, I believe the importer was Cimarron but don't recall for sure. The latch was defective on my example and others. The firearm would with some regularity open when fired. I returned it for a refund. I believe the issue was solved and the replicas now available are good to go. But I haven't got around to buying another one.

Howdy

That was a problem with the Schofield replicas manufactured by ASM, which is probably what you had. The replicas made by Uberti do not have this problem.

Neither did the originals.

 

[Jim Watson]

My ASM wouldn't kick open, but the barrel was crooked.
Shot way to the left.
Would not pass a range rod all the way through.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

https://www.quotev.com/story/10085946/The-Tragedy-of-George-Schofield

You know, just about anybody can publish anything they want, no matter how much research they have actually done.

That article has several incorrect statements, over simplifications, and exaggerations in it.

Schofield was not chosen by the Army to collaborate with S&W on the development of the Schofield revolver as the article implies, he had been working on it independently of S&W since 1870, five years before the Army began seriously considering the Schofield model.

In my opinion, Schofied's patents on his barrel latch and ejector system were far more important than the development of the 45 Schofield cartridge. The author implies otherwise. Long after the Schofield model ceased production, S&W continued to use his improvement to the ejector system.

Regarding the often quoted problem of 45 Colt cartridges being issued to units with Schofield revolvers, although the author states this happened frequently, I have never come across any documentation of it happening.

Regarding blaming depression caused by the death of his wife for his suicide, Schofield's wife died in March of 1879. Schofield did not shoot himself until December 17, 1882. I have no idea about the financial difficulties Schofield was facing, I would like to see the author's references to that.

Regarding the early Tip Up S&W revolvers, not many soldiers were buying the tiny 22 short rimfire Tip Up revolvers during the Civil War, they were buying the much larger 32 caliber ones, which the author states did not appear until after the war. The 32 caliber #2 Old Army at the top of this photo is what many officers liked. Not as powerful as the 44 caliber Cap & Ball revolvers of the day, it was never the less much quicker to reload. The tiny #1 Tip Up at the bottom of the photo is what the author thinks was popular during the Civil War. It was the 32 caliber #1 1/2, in the middle of the photo that did not start being made until after the Civil War. If he had done his homework he would have learned it was called the #1 1/2 because the numbers 1 and 2 were already taken.






The author does not know what he is talking about regarding Rollin White either. S&W did not 'appropriate' White's patent on bored through chambers in a revolver cylinder. Daniel Wesson approached White as early as 1856 because he realized his new revolver design would encroach on White's patent. White signed a licensing agreement with S&W, which paid him a royalty of $.25 for every revolver S&W produced, not $.25 on every dollar S&W made. White's mistake was agreeing to the part of the contract where it would be his responsibility to track down patent infringements. That is where White almost went broke, because there were plenty of patent infringements going on at the time.

 

[Jim Watson]

Some of the old copies will be found marked "Made for Smith and Wesson" after White took them to law.

 

[DocRock]

https://www.quotev.com/story/10085946/The-Tragedy-of-George-Schofield

You know, just about anybody can publish anything they want, no matter how much research they have actually done.

That article has several incorrect statements, over simplifications, and exaggerations in it.

Schofield was not chosen by the Army to collaborate with S&W on the development of the Schofield revolver as the article implies, he had been working on it independently of S&W since 1870, five years before the Army began seriously considering the Schofield model.

In my opinion, Schofied's patents on his barrel latch and ejector system were far more important than the development of the 45 Schofield cartridge. The author implies otherwise. Long after the Schofield model ceased production, S&W continued to use his improvement to the ejector system.

Regarding the often quoted problem of 45 Colt cartridges being issued to units with Schofield revolvers, although the author states this happened frequently, I have never come across any documentation of it happening.

Regarding blaming depression caused by the death of his wife for his suicide, Schofield's wife died in March of 1879. Schofield did not shoot himself until December 17, 1882. I have no idea about the financial difficulties Schofield was facing, I would like to see the author's references to that.

Regarding the early Tip Up S&W revolvers, not many soldiers were buying the tiny 22 short rimfire Tip Up revolvers during the Civil War, they were buying the much larger 32 caliber ones, which the author states did not appear until after the war. The 32 caliber #2 Old Army at the top of this photo is what many officers liked. Not as powerful as the 44 caliber Cap & Ball revolvers of the day, it was never the less much quicker to reload. The tiny #1 Tip Up at the bottom of the photo is what the author thinks was popular during the Civil War. It was the 32 caliber #1 1/2, in the middle of the photo that did not start being made until after the Civil War. If he had done his homework he would have learned it was called the #1 1/2 because the numbers 1 and 2 were already taken.

View attachment 1008443




The author does not know what he is talking about regarding Rollin White either. S&W did not 'appropriate' White's patent on bored through chambers in a revolver cylinder. Daniel Wesson approached White as early as 1856 because he realized his new revolver design would encroach on White's patent. White signed a licensing agreement with S&W, which paid him a royalty of $.25 for every revolver S&W produced, not $.25 on every dollar S&W made. White's mistake was agreeing to the part of the contract where it would be his responsibility to track down patent infringements. That is where White almost went broke, because there were plenty of patent infringements going on at the time.

The poor quality of the writing, almost as if by a non-native speaker of English, is in alignment with the poor quality of the research. The author’s insistence that the S&W 22 rimfire pistols were popular with the military is unsupported by any information that I have seen. And you make an excellent point about Schofield’s lasting impact on S&W ejection technology. The author’s seeming lack of knowledge about the Army’s solution to 45LC/45 Schofield logistics is a further signal of his poor research.

 

[Speedo66]

When I read the part about Scofield making 25% of all S&W income, I knew the whole article was suspect.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Some of the old copies will be found marked "Made for Smith and Wesson" after White took them to law.

Howdy Again

White started his own company in Lowell, Massachusetts in 1861 to manufacture revolvers. He called the company the Rollin White Arms Company and he made approximately 4,300 revolvers. Most of these were sold to S&W to keep up with the demand for the S&W revolvers. Those are probably the revolvers labelled "Made for Smith and Wesson". As far as I know, this was not done in response to a lawsuit.


Rollin White had an interesting history. He learned gunsmithing from his brother. In 1849 he went to work for Colt under a contract with his brother for turning and finishing revolver barrels. That was how Colt did business in those days, he did not hire workers directly, instead he hired them on a contract basis. It was while working for Colt that he came up with his idea for a cylinder with a bored through chamber. He put together a crude prototype from junk parts at Colt, and presented his idea to Sam Colt. Colt rejected the idea, so White quit working for Colt in 1854 and within three months had obtained five different patents from the patent office.

I used to think Colt must have kicked himself later for rejecting White's idea, but the prototype White put together was so crude it is no wonder Colt rejected it.

This is the patent drawing for White's idea:






I took the liberty of photographing this image from Roy Jink's book History of Smith and Wesson. Roy says," Rollin White patent model that had a magazine feed for linen cartridges that loaded from the front of the cylinder and an automatic primer feed in front of the hammer." No wonder Colt rejected this kluge! It was totally impractical, and when White tried to demonstrate it the thing kept chain firing all six chambers at once. It is quite surprising the bizarre devices that regularly received patents at this time, no matter how outlandish and impractical they were. Note: the bent barrel is just a result of the way I took the photo.






When S&W signed the royalty agreement with White, it was for the patent illustrated by this drawing. They were only interested in the bored through chambers feature of his patent, and that is what he licensed them to do. For a royalty of $.25 per revolver manufactured.





White sold his Rollin White Arms Company to the Lowell Arms Company in 1864, which made 7,500 revolvers in a clear patent infringement. In keeping with his agreement with S&W, to enforce the patent, White sued them.

When he was a young man, Daniel Wesson had worked for his brother Edwin's rifle company. He learned first hand how difficult it was to enforce patent restrictions, that was why he had insisted that White bear the responsibility to enforce the patent.

White's fortunes rose and fell over the years, not only as he chased down patent infringements.

He was denied and extension of his patent, so he lobbied Congress for relief in 1870. He claimed he had only been paid $71,000 by S&W while S&W earned over $1,000,000 using his patent. White claimed he had spent most of his earnings defending the patent, which turned out to be untrue, since he had assigned the royalty payments to his wife. He actually only paid $17,000 in legal costs.

Congress passed the Rollin White Relief Act, in order to get White another hearing with the patent office, but President Grant vetoed it on the advice of Chief of Ordnance Alexander Dyer. Dyer was not happy with how other manufacturers had been unable to use the White patent to make revolvers that would accept metallic cartridges during the Civil War.

White gave up pressing Congress for a renewal of his patent in 1877.

 

[DocRock]

Howdy Again

White started his own company in Lowell, Massachusetts in 1861 to manufacture revolvers. He called the company the Rollin White Arms Company and he made approximately 4,300 revolvers. Most of these were sold to S&W to keep up with the demand for the S&W revolvers. Those are probably the revolvers labelled "Made for Smith and Wesson". As far as I know, this was not done in response to a lawsuit.


Rollin White had an interesting history. He learned gunsmithing from his brother. In 1849 he went to work for Colt under a contract with his brother for turning and finishing revolver barrels. That was how Colt did business in those days, he did not hire workers directly, instead he hired them on a contract basis. It was while working for Colt that he came up with his idea for a cylinder with a bored through chamber. He put together a crude prototype from junk parts at Colt, and presented his idea to Sam Colt. Colt rejected the idea, so White quit working for Colt in 1854 and within three months had obtained five different patents from the patent office.

I used to think Colt must have kicked himself later for rejecting White's idea, but the prototype White put together was so crude it is no wonder Colt rejected it.

This is the patent drawing for White's idea:

View attachment 1008681




I took the liberty of photographing this image from Roy Jink's book History of Smith and Wesson. Roy says," Rollin White patent model that had a magazine feed for linen cartridges that loaded from the front of the cylinder and an automatic primer feed in front of the hammer." No wonder Colt rejected this kluge! It was totally impractical, and when White tried to demonstrate it the thing kept chain firing all six chambers at once. It is quite surprising the bizarre devices that regularly received patents at this time, no matter how outlandish and impractical they were. Note: the bent barrel is just a result of the way I took the photo.

View attachment 1008682




When S&W signed the royalty agreement with White, it was for the patent illustrated by this drawing. They were only interested in the bored through chambers feature of his patent, and that is what he licensed them to do. For a royalty of $.25 per revolver manufactured.

View attachment 1008683



White sold his Rollin White Arms Company to the Lowell Arms Company in 1864, which made 7,500 revolvers in a clear patent infringement. In keeping with his agreement with S&W, to enforce the patent, White sued them.

When he was a young man, Daniel Wesson had worked for his brother Edwin's rifle company. He learned first hand how difficult it was to enforce patent restrictions, that was why he had insisted that White bear the responsibility to enforce the patent.

White's fortunes rose and fell over the years, not only as he chased down patent infringements.

He was denied and extension of his patent, so he lobbied Congress for relief in 1870. He claimed he had only been paid $71,000 by S&W while S&W earned over $1,000,000 using his patent. White claimed he had spent most of his earnings defending the patent, which turned out to be untrue, since he had assigned the royalty payments to his wife. He actually only paid $17,000 in legal costs.

Congress passed the Rollin White Relief Act, in order to get White another hearing with the patent office, but President Grant vetoed it on the advice of Chief of Ordnance Alexander Dyer. Dyer was not happy with how other manufacturers had been unable to use the White patent to make revolvers that would accept metallic cartridges during the Civil War.

White gave up pressing Congress for a renewal of his patent in 1877.

That was super interesting. Thanks for sharing. It offsets some of the horror of the article that was posted above.