School me on 6mm Creed?

[mshootnit]

In real world numbers, how does the new 6mm creedmoor stack up against my old 6mm Rem? For example if I take out my old 6mm Rem, 22" barrel with 100 gr vs. a new 6mm Creed with 100 gr. How much fps , energy, and point blank difference ae we talking? I am shooting some factory Cor lokt 100 gr.

 

[LoonWulf]

If were talking hunting situation, with bullets similar to your corlokt, then the difference is the head stamp on the case.

Velocity wise the 6mm can be about 100fps faster than the CM or .243 with equal barrel lengths.

Now if we talk about best and baddest factory loads you can get the CM loaded with a 103eldx which has a higher BC than anything the 6mm comes with from the factory. There are also some small ammo makers who load the Creedmoor with bullets like the dtac or berger vlds.

In handloads the CMs major advantage is its much faster twist.
The 6mms come with, at fastest, a 1-10 i believe. Which is too slow to optimally stabilize the 95+ vld type bullets.


Again tho if were talking max point blank range (3ish up 3ish down) in a hunting scenario. Your looking at something like 300-330yds with either using hornadys loads for both, 103eldx for the CM, and 95sst for the 6Rem.

Honestly much like the 6.5 CM compared to the .260, or 6.5x55, there really isnt any reason to switch if you already own a gun in one of the others that you like. Unless your looking at it specifically for shooting the higher bc bullets (tho the 6.5s are mostly twisted fast enough for the long pointy type bullets).

 

[Bobson]

^ If looking for a 6.5 CM, what's the twist rate you'd want in your rifle? For hunting, let's say. And then, would the answer be different if the rifle was for target shooting?

I've been planning to get a bolt gun before fall, and had originally figured on either 308 or 30-06, but lately been leaning toward 6.5 CM because it sounds more than sufficient for anything I'd hung out here in western WA. Only thing is I still don't know that much about it.

 

[LoonWulf]

Personally id opt for a 1-8 twist barrel for either hunting or target, which is what my howa 6.5 carries. The major draw for the 6.5s, and the modernized 6mms for that matter, are long high bc bullets. While slower twist might shoot them ok you know a 1-8 will.

While i KNOW some of the other guys dont like them, Ive also found heavy for caliber Amax and Berger vld type bullets to be exceptionally deadly on deer size animals.


Now if your wanting a "do all" rifle, you may want a slower twist rate to handle the sub 100grn bullets a little more gently.
Ive shot a few 100grn balistic tips from my 1-8 creedmoor and seen good accuracy, but the theory is that the slower twist will be less likely to wreck a true varmint bullet when launched at max velocity.

 

[jmr40]

With 100 gr bullets there isn't enough difference to matter. Where the 6mm Creed has an advantage is with the 105-115 gr bullets. The Creed case is designed to handle those longer bullets without taking up too much space inside the cartridge. Same idea behind the 6.5 Creed vs 260.

 

[redneck2]

In real world numbers, how does the new 6mm creedmoor stack up against my old 6mm Rem?

Facts.....

(A). Reality really doesn't fit in when people dispute politics, religion, and particularly caliber choices.

(B). A given amount of powder, behind a given bullet is gonna give pretty much the same results. You can lengthen, shorten, change shoulder angle on the case. No meaningful differences, other than it gives guys on gun boards something to argue about.

(C). An increase of 10% in the powder charge gives a 2 1/2% increase in velocity. The extra energy is expelled by heating and burning the barrel. This is not a linear relationship, it is parabolic as is the change in pressure vs. amount of powder with smokeless

(D). Any critter you whack will not be able to tell if you've changed the shoulder angle 2 degrees or changed the velocity by 50 fps.

(E). Fretting endlessly about minute changes in rifle cartridges makes as much sense as worry about which side of toilet paper you should use.

(F). If you think you are inventing some new cartridge, buy a copy of "Cartridges of the World". You will very likely find out your newest, latest, greatest was thought of fifty years ago. And in a better configuration

You are welcome

 

[CoalTrain49]

I would say if you already have a 6mm you don't need another one for hunting.

If you want a new rifle that's different. I would move up to a 6.5 or 7mm.

When I lived in AZ. I used to hunt with a guy that had a 6mm Remington. I saw him bag a lot of deer with that rifle, the only one he owned. There isn't much a 243/6mm Rem can't do on medium sized game.

 

[Offfhand]

With 100 gr bullets there isn't enough difference to matter. Where the 6mm Creed has an advantage is with the 105-115 gr bullets. The Creed case is designed to handle those longer bullets without taking up too much space inside the cartridge. Same idea behind the 6.5 Creed vs 260.

This is a curious explanation. If you don't mind, please explain how making a cartridge case shorter makes it better for longer bullets.

 

[redneck2]

The Creed is designed for longer range shooting. That means heavier bullets for improved B.C. Since you can't make them bigger around, you make them longer. The Creed is designed so that the longer, heavier bullets can be seated out farther. The only choice on the .260 is to seat them deeper since you are limited once you're up tight against the lands.

 

[Offfhand]

The only choice on the .260 is to seat them deeper since you are limited once you're up tight against the lands.

Excuse me, but this explanation sounds like Creedmoor Kool-Aid. Ya gotta wonder how this stuff gets started. Up against what lands in what rifle? Obviously, the limiting factor of many rifles is magazine length, pure and simple. Attached is a photo of a .260 AR magazine loaded with 142 grain Sierra MKs, the cartridge length limitation is obvious and would be no different with a Creed. Bolt action long range match grade rifles in .260 Rem. are chambered to optimize bullet seating, and typically have long throats. So where is the problem?

 

[mshootnit]

OK, I see now, Creedmoor sports a tighter twist for a new and usefull generation of long sleek bullets. Not a bad thing. I like the idea of 103gr. eldx, and 115 gr. Berger.

Do you know that I ran into trouble seating Bergers with a normal 308 seating die?

 

[redneck2]

Up against what lands in what rifle? Obviously, the limiting factor of many rifles is magazine length, pure and simple

Uhhhh....no. You're 180 degrees off. They don't design the cartridge to fit the magazine. They design the magazine to fit the cartridge. If the Creed has a longer O.A.L ( overall length) then the magazines should typically be longer.

It's common to need to single load very high B.C. (Heavy for caliber bullets) in AR's due to the 2.230 Mag length

Goes back to Isaak Newton (he was an English physicist in case you didn't know). Only one object can occupy a space at one time. It's either the bullet or powder. If I have a longer bullet and shove it farther into the case, I have less room for powder.

Now, if you read (and you REALLY should) my list of truths relating to cartridges, this may be more smoke and mirrors than truth. But many times truth is more perception than reality. See "E"

 

[redneck2]

Excuse me, but this explanation sounds like Creedmoor Kool-Aid. Ya gotta wonder how this stuff gets started. Up against what lands in what rifle?

Do you understand what the lands are? I assume not from your reply.

 

[LoonWulf]

OK, I see now, Creedmoor sports a tighter twist for a new and usefull generation of long sleek bullets. Not a bad thing. I like the idea of 103gr. eldx, and 115 gr. Berger.

Do you know that I ran into trouble seating Bergers with a normal 308 seating die?

Yeah alot of dies dont have a deep enough seater for vlds. On a few of mine ive just drilled the inserts deeper, but the better option is to replace the seater plugs with "vld" types.

And yeah the theory behind the creedmoors shorter case is when loaded to mag length theres less bullet stuck down in the case. This goes hand in hand with the saami chamber specs. Basically .260 throated for a vld with a 2.8oal would be functionaly the same as the 6.5creedmoor, but would now have issues with less pointy bullets hitting the lands, as well as maybe the ogive of the vld bullet being back inside the neck of the case......all in all while the Creedmoor performance hype IS koolaid, it was a good way to solve the issues of short magazine and long throat. It also gives us a nice case to work with on other projects.

 

[mshootnit]

Yeah alot of dies dont have a deep enough seater for vlds. On a few of mine ive just drilled the inserts deeper, but the better option is to replace the seater plugs with "vld" types.

Helpful info, Thank you

 

[Clark]

I shot a couple antelope in October with 6mmBR and 95 gr Nosler Ballistic tips at 2800 fps. Both were bang flops at 200 yards.
Those are good 6mm bullets.

 

[eastbank]

you can insert a loaded 3006 factory 165g shell in my remington 700 classics magizine in 6.5x55, so seating a longer bullet is no problem and as its a modern action it will take the same pressure as the 6.5CM-.260 rem. and the same goes for my CZ 550 in 6.5x55. as the twist is a little over 8, the 6.5x55(COL a hair under 3") gives up nothing to the afore mentioned cartiges. eastbank.

 

[LoonWulf]

^ exactly

as long as you have mag space and twist rate the longer 6.5s out perform the CM, as would properly throated and maged .243s and 6Rems.
When you restrict Coal to around 2.8ish then they all end up with about the same internal capacity. So if your stuck with a 2.8 inch mag the CM, and really any case based on it or the savage .250/.300s, makes quite a bit of sense.

 

[Gtscotty]

I shot a couple antelope in October with 6mmBR and 95 gr Nosler Ballistic tips at 2800 fps. Both were bang flops at 200 yards.
Those are good 6mm bullets.

I used the 95gr NBT on the two deer I shot with my .243. I too thought it was an excellent hunting bullet, I got exits on both deer and a good, short blood trail on the one that ran. I do think that the 10 twist in my Winchester was marginal for the NBT, I really had to fiddle with it a lot to get a good load. It loved the shorter varmint bullets that I had no use for though.

Twist rate certainly wouldn't be a problem with the 6mm Creed, factory twists after usually between 7.7 and 8. I suppose there could be problems with the super light weight varmint bullets blowing up, but I don't shoot that kind of bullet anyway. The 6mm Creed really shines in longer range PRS type shooting. I know two guys who recently switched to the 6mm Creed for PRS, one is shooting the 110gr Sierra's with a G1 of .617 @ 3,100 fps out of a 26" barrel... pretty amazing ballistics. Just like with the .260, you could use a barrel with a custom chambering (like the .260 Tac), and custom twist in .243 Win to optimize for shooting the longest bullets at top velocity, but the creeds come with those tweeks standardized from the factory.

I don't know how important these advantages are for a pure hunting rifle, but at least you wouldn't be limited in the bullets you could load. I thought the .243 worked excellent on deer, but I wouldn't buy another one with a 10 twist.