AR-15 .223REM vs 6.8SPC vs 300AAC Blackout vs 6x45 vs 6.5Grendel vs 7.62x39...

[1stmarine]

Rsilvers,
Yes that makes sense. After my other work I was just trying to show what some of the popular loads do in a field test.

Also I have to add that my equipment is all well maintained, true and tested. Sometimes we run machines in parallel with a couple of friends that do BR to make sure we debug any inconsistencies due to bad hardware.

I wasn't planning to get out all the data from the Russian puffins but if you want I can give you all the spreads and averages from the machine.

Cheers.
E.

 

[1stmarine]

Someone talked about .223 REM in the AR being underestimated? Well my answer to that is that some folks might have some personal preferences but there are very few things a modern 75gr bullet traveling at 2750fps cannot do at a moderate range and for most purposes the average joe needs. Even an entry level system is going to be much better than the average joe.

When folks start talking about 600 yards, 800 yards and so, the least of their worries are what system to choose and more about the gear and proper training. That's where the big bucks go.

.223, 6x45, grendel, big momma single stack calibers, ...same way I think about the 300 SSA blackout. It can do a lot of things and apparently very well. I am really excited about the suppressed possibilities and see if I can get a pig or two in the summer w/o waking up the neighbors around the farm.

here is a .223 rem target from last fall out of an RRA National Match upper...



Cheers,
E.

 

[1stmarine]

The 6x45 is closing up and I got many groups inside a dime this being the best of them....





I like the lothar walter barrel. It is braking in nicely and the $'s in advance show up later on.

 

[gshipps]

Well 1stmarine, I hate to take another direction but I have to ask.

What do you think of the .243win compared to the 6x45?

I was all set to order in 243 and then here you come making all this sense with the 6x45! Now I don't know what to do!

 

[1stmarine]

Well the .243win is one of the most popular rounds in the world but that is not just because of the .308win parent case but because of the bullets you can launch that is the 6mm department.
So the .243win is hard to beat but you have to run it on an AR-10. DPMS makes a good one but I heard better go for the shilen barrels.
The 6x45 carries plenty of punch and feels the void quite nicely.
It can put a 90gr bullet with very good BC at 2700fps and 2750 with a hot hunting round. Not that is needed but plenty to take care of a white tail out to 300 or even close to 400 yards and a coyote at 500 even 600 yards but at those ranges the least of your worries is the system you choose and the gear and the training is where the big bucks go. Most folks are not ready to do that.
One thing is sure, the 6mm bullets can take care of many types of game not just white tail.
I feel that for many uses the 6x45 will work just fine, like in places for an inexplicable reason the .223rem you cannot hunt, but it is up to you if you need the extra punch of the .243Win that is a very nice round but need the extra meat to carry around with the AR10.
Both can be extremely accurate and capable of below 1/2MOA if you put the dollars in a match barrel and some reloads.
The 6x45 brass is virtually free at the range bin so something to take into account.
The lothar walther I got is a very good barrel and is giving below 1/4MOA already.

I liked the 6x45 project because of the simplicity. That is why I like the .223 REM high grain rounds and all the other rounds that do not need extra mags, oversized bolts and whole nine yards. It keeps the systems better integrated, I think.
I have around 140 AR-15 magazines and only a few dozen among all the other rounds so you cannot beat standardization.
I still believe our troops should have the 6x45 with 80gr to 90gr sniper rounds.
There will be less need for the .308 in many situations the 5.56 cannot deliver the mail.

Read this....
http://www.chuckhawks.com/6mm_military_cartridge.htm

I you consider 6x45 you can buy this one but I think the one you build could be as good or better. Also plan in reloading, black hills is expensive
and do not shoot that great anyway. I went with a 1:9 rate and it has no issues stabilizing the 100grainers.

http://www.lesbaer.com/6x45.html

I hope this helps.
Cheers.
E.

 

[gshipps]

I really want to thank you for posting your project and value your opinion very highly. I'll keep thinking but I'm liking that 6x45. Free brass, common mags, weight. Makes sense to me. Kinda like the idea of having somthing a little different. But also makes me a little apprehensive being a little different. Maybe for no reason but I consider myself still pretty green.

 

[1stmarine]

Many thanks for the kind words. The way I approach this is like many other projects, people tell me cannot be done and the math told me it can be done.
so I bite the bullet and get it built and then show the results.
Many folks still very skeptical about the .223REM capabilities being good for hunting and others are taking down white tail and black bear with them all day long. So what can I tell you?. There are always skeptical people and more times than not those do not own any of the systems they are criticizing. One thing you will find in this forum is extremely experienced people but also a lot of the folks that are experts at everything and masters at nothing.
I believe this was one of the easiest once I got the barrel that was a long wait but the build is a no brainier. The only thing that I am going to do like I do with some others is to change the gas block for one with the gas adjustment so I can tune up the timing - dwell time.
I am not a master at this. I will never be. The day I stop learning that day I will be dead.

I will be creating another thread on the 30 Rem AR I am working on now. That with 150gr and 160gr high BC bullets.
Another one I believe underestimated. This is single stack though and needs dpms mags and bolt but very strong
little stubby case.

Cheers.
E.

 

[rsilvers]

Come on. Three shot groups? They are not useful for judging ammo or rifle performance.

At least a 10 shot group or an average of five consecutive five shot groups.

 

[gshipps]

I've never necked any up or down before. Lube, size it, done? When necking up does the case mouth get thin? Not that I'm worried about case life I guess. This is what concerns me a little I guess, having never done it before.

 

[1stmarine]

rsilvers,
I agree, those are pure luck. I get lucky every time I shoot 3 shots inside a dime every day as many times as I want.
There is always a reason for 3 shots groups.

 

[1stmarine]

gshipps,
I assume you are asking form 5.56 to 6mm. The difference is 0.44mm.
The neck wall gets thiner but good for 4 or 5 reloads in the AR, depending on the quality of the brass and how hot you go.
Necking up I use canola oil. one drop. rub my fingers and that's good for 10 cases. It also helps 'feel' the case for any imperfections after the mandatory visual inspection.
In all autoloaders I full resize all the time and check for OAL, trim if necessary.
The .223 REM and all offsprings from this case are very forgiving and a good way for junior reloaders to get experienced in the wonderful art(or science) of reloading.

 

[gshipps]

Thanks. I've run a little over 1000 223 thru my 550 so far. No big trouble yet and they've been running fine thru my AR. I think you've got me sold. Now what am I going to do with this 243 brass that I started stocking up on? Thanks again!

 

[1stmarine]

What range are looking for? Did you consider the Grendel or the 30 Remington AR?
My advice is don't do this based on opinions on one post alone. I suggest you think about it and talk to other people. I do this for fun, sometimes the projects work better than others. The .243win is an amazing round so I would save it even if you decide now you want to go with the AR15 upper. Again talk to others, that is what I would do.

I like the other uppers too. What is the purpose? are you not happy with the .223REM?
I understand if some places is not allowed for hunting below 6mm, who knows why?. Maybe to avoid people going hunting with a cheap 55gr load, I guess. ?

My primary reason for these uppers is A) hunt B) hobby
and C) and the most important...extreme FAST THREE SHOT EXTREME accuracy if I can squeeze it out. That is related to point A too.

 

[TexasPatriot.308]

when it comes down to the SHTF situation, you are gonna wish you had a common caliber that ammo will be readily availble for, stick to the basics or wind up with a rifle with no ammo for it. as I remember plastic (synthetic) stocks tend to shatter when they come in contact with a human skull....

 

[benzy2]

Do we really need to bring SHTF into this? Honestly, this isn't talk about an end of the world rifle. It's about a rifle for the world we're in now. Honestly, if you are playing with one of these fairly uncommon rounds, you've probably got a few others to also use in any case where spare parts are no longer available.

 

[1stmarine]

I don't know what is with the SHTF, end of days, year 2012, mayan calendar folks. I see this a lot lately and I don't know what that means. I DO know the meaning of the acronym but I cannot envision what sort of situation this could be. Maybe something like what happened in Japan with the Tsunami?
I encourage folks to open a new thread to explain there what their worries are, not here. We are in a peaceful constructive thread (so far).
Besides my uppers I also have a few dozen "airsoft" systems. That's what I know best from my early puppy days in the service as squad DM.
and I have thousands of those "airsoft" bb's that we used in the service. LOL!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peIsu_oeslo&feature=fvsr

Where were we?

 

[Sky]

I personally appreciate the work you do in prep of your post.

 

[1stmarine]

Thanks. I am learning too, ...every day.

 

[gshipps]

Just general use for me. I started out wanting to add a 308 but really didn't need anything that big. Then I was thinking 243, already have the dies and some brass. Saw your project thread and it really got me to thinking about the 6x45. The 223 will really do about all I NEED to do but what's the fun in that! Always room for just a little more of whatever your seeking. I think I'll probably go store bought. I know that's no fun for some people but it's simple. And I'm in to simple.

 

[1stmarine]

well,
For simplicity is hard to beat that is for sure.
If you like accuracy spend the bucks in the barrel no matter what caliber. It will show. But there are some entry barrels that are not bad for the price.
I like 20" to get the most out of the round. I could go a little further but I calculated that at 20" in this caliber with this case you are done pushing the bullet at that length.

I also tried the Superformance powder but I couldn't make it work just yet in any of the AR calibers, including grendel, 30AR and also the bigger brothers including the .308 winchester and 03.06.
In the end plenty of speed with the extruded powders for the 85gr and 90gr SGKs. I also used the TTSX from barnes that are top white tail performers.

I also tried the 100gr SGK and the 105gr AMAX but have not enough data to create a ballistic chart. I mostly use hunting bullets but I have to play a bit more with some target bullets.

Cheers,
E.

 

[jpwilly]

I don't believe the 223 (and maybe others calibers) are getting a fair deal with your testing. The comparison of high BC custom 6x45mm loads for example to typical 55gr and 62gr ammo when much higher BC 75gr "match" loads exist seems to over look the obvious.

 

[1stmarine]

If you do not have a .308 win you should have one. It should be mandatory in every home or farm! LOL!!!
I use both in autoloaders and bolt and what can I tell you. It is a little boring now as I shot this all my life but the round is one of the best rounds ever devised. Very reliable in all conditions. When I take a .308win out to a hunt or to the range is like going out with an old good and reliable friend. Nothing new exciting but always you can count on the round to deliver.

Cheers,
E.

 

[benzy2]

I don't believe the 223 (and maybe others calibers) are getting a fair deal with your testing. Your comparison of high BC custom 6x45mm loads to typical 55gr and 62gr ammo when much higher BC 75gr "match" loads exist seems to over look the obvious.

It would be nice to see a 75gr Amax or 80gr SMK load tossed in there as well.

 

[1stmarine]

Good idea. I have 223REM Hornady 75gr HPBT and 77gr Berger VLD spreads and ballistic charts, let me find them and pull them out.

 

[ssyoumans]

Interesting thread. A little surprised no one suggested a 6mmAR or for even a little more speed, the 6mmAR Turbo. Both are necking down 6.5 Grendel cases. So if the Grendel is up for consideration than toss these 2 into the ring.
http://6mmar.com/
http://6mmar.com/6mmAR_Turbo.html

Unfortunately I don't have experience with either yet, just a 223 Rem and a non-black rifle 243 Win, but they seem like an interesting option depending on OP primary purpose. Since I already have 243 bullets, I'd prefer something in 6mm over 6.5 or 6.8. Guess that is a nit.

The case seems better suited for long 100-108gr match type bullets, but I suppose the 6mmx45 would work reasonably well up to 100gr, but to get the max power & velocity (+200 to 300fps) compared to the 6mmx45, and and an excellent 6mm BC's you need the larger case. I do like the lower cost of entry with the 6mmx45 though. Same bolt, mag, etc.