School me on scales

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Jcinnb

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I got an RCBS 505 with my kit.

Seems like works well. What do the next couple going up in priceget you from a practical perspective.

Thanks in advance.
 
Jcinnb said:
I got an RCBS 505 with my kit.

Seems like works well. What do the next couple going up in priceget you from a practical perspective.

Thanks in advance.
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My upgrades from the kit scale in order are:

- RCBS 1010. Still have it to this day in case the power goes out.
- RCBS Chargemaster
- Acculab VIC212 digital scale. So accurate and sensitive you cant breath on it.

Just for grins, I have compared weights between all 3 and there is less than 3 hundredths of a grain between them. Nothing practical about it though.

Cheers,
Wooly
 
I got a 505 with my master kit over 20 years ago. It worked fine and I guess still does. 15 or so years ago, I paid 99 bucks for a Pact BBK digital scale and haven't used the 505 since.
 
Beam scales are great and the batteries never wear out.

That said, I use an electronic scale on a regular basis but they do require more effort and care to get repeatable results. At a minimum, if you get an electronic scale, get one that can be plugged into the wall. The lower priced battery only units can be frustrating to use at times.

Plan to spend in the vicinity or north of $100 for a electronic scale.

I do have a beam scale on hand for back up of my electronic scale.
 
I have the RCBS 10-10 and it is a great scale. Besides the obvious capacity difference it does the same thing as the 505 just a little differently. The adjustments are a little different and the 10-10 packs up neatly into the scale body with a plastic lid. Both are magnetically dampened. I bought the 10-10 because I liked it but probably would have been just as happy with the 505. I have yet to pony up the dough for a nice electronic scale. I have spent money on cheaper ones. The one I have now is used only for weighing cases and bullets. The beam scale works for me and if I'm going to electronic it will be the Chargemaster or similar.

Since you seem new to scales, make sure that you have your fans off in the room and you pay attention to what your HVAC is doing. If the AC is on it changes the weight as well as the fan blowing on it. Just moving my arm over it makes it move. Also when I do long sessions I check the zero several times throughout the day. It is isolated from my bench and mounted at eye level for easy reading.
 
Incongruously, I prefer a beam scale for setting and checking the powder drop on a progressive press, and a digital scale (Chargemaster) for single-stage rifle rounds.

The one thing I wouldn't recommend is a very cheap digital scale. A basic beam balance is far more accurate, and we're working with gunpowder. This ain't your uncle's medical plants we're weighing here. :)
 
I have an old 5-10 that is spot on, and because it has a wheel, I can weight in increments below .1 if necessary. I don't like the electronic scales though. I have one and thought I would like it, but it has not been able to produce the consistency of my good ol' mechanical RCBS.

GS
 
Like said above, the only real upgrade to the 5-0-5 is the 10-10. I never had the money to buy the 10-10 especially since I already had a 5-0-5 but I always did want one. If I find a good used one some day I'll buy it but they are rarely for sale because they are so good.
 
Jcinnb said:
I got an RCBS 505 with my kit.

Seems like works well. What do the next couple going up in priceget you from a practical perspective.

Thanks in advance.
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With a focus for now on RCBS since that is what you have, the RCBS Model 505 Magnetic Powder Scale has a capacity of about 511 grains with an accuracy / uncertainty of +/- 0.1 grain. It cost about $90. So what if you move up to the RCBS Model 1010 Magnetic Powder Scale ? What will that get you that you don't already have for the added cost? The RCBS 1010 cost about $168. You close to double the capacity from 511 grains to 1,010 grains and that is about it. They both use magnetic dampening for stability and both have the same accuracy / uncertainty. So all you really gain is more capacity. The remaining specifications are about the same so unless you have a need for more capacity there is really no gain in going from what you have to the higher capacity scale. The same is pretty much true for other brands and models.

Just about all beam scales of this type use the same magnetic dampening and offer up the same accuracy / uncertainty of +/- 0.1 grain. On the bright side if you like the color green stay with RCBS, if you prefer orange in your reloading bench decor I suggest Lyman and of course if you prefer blue there is Dillon. :)

The accuracy / uncertainty specification of +/- 0.1 grain is more than adequate for weighing powder charges. Short of exiting standard reloading powder scales for a laboratory precision scale the +/- 0.1 grain is what you will see. There really isn't any need for a more accurate scale.

Enter the digital electronic family of scales. Since they began showing up on loading benches about 20 years ago they seem to have a love it or hate it relationship with the hand loading community. They can be powered by line power, battery power or both. Like any scale type they have their good and not so good points to consider. The first not so good point is one everyone mentions when it comes to digital scales. They are very susceptible to vibration or the slightest breeze blowing over the platen or powder pan. The basic scales of this type don't have the dampening their analog counterparts have so using them in any area with a breeze can lead to ultimate frustration and resisting the urge to toss them into a wall and start looking for your old scale. They also like a warm up period to achieve their optimum uncertainty and stability. Most handloaders just leave them on 24/7/365. Their accuracy / uncertainty specifications for the hand loader market are the same as their analog counterparts. One nice feature is they are very easy to read at a distance with a glance.

Electronic scales have come a long way and as to bang for the buck have dropped in cost considerably over the years. Today's electronic scales can be as simple as this RCBS RangeMaster 750 Electronic Powder Scale 750 Grain Capacity selling for around $120 to more elaborate scale systems like this RCBS ChargeMaster 1500 Powder Scale and Dispenser Combo which does everything short of making toast. Other manufacturers offer up the same or similar products which do about the same thing.

When it comes to powder scales it becomes a matter of the end user's budget, what they feel they need or want and what trips their trigger so to speak. My first scale was about 40 years ago and was an old balance beam type, it still works or did work the last time I saw it. Today I use both analog and digital and have no real preference.

Finally a good set of check or test weights is important and such weights can be had from countless vendors in various quantity kits and uncertainties. I am in the school that places strong emphasis on a good weight set. A good set can be had for example from McMaster Carr Supply offering a good enough 12 piece set for around $80. That or just buy several weights in the ranges you need. You want to check your scale in the ranges you are using. If I am loading 5.5 grains of Unique in 45 ACP cases a 20 or 50 gram test weight is not what I want. :)

Just My Take on Scales
Ron
 
Ron's over view is accurate within .00001 grain. You could "move up" in cost but you would gain nothing practicle. A scale is a scale, no magic in any of them. and they all weigh within .1 gr, more accuracy than that adds nothing because individual primers and internal case variations make more difference than .01 gr.

I bought what is now the RCBS 1010 when I started in '65 because that extra capacity would surely be useful, right? Wrong; I've never weighed anything heavier than the basic 505 gr. capacity could handle nicely. But, it's accuracy is unchanged and it's ready to go that much longer. What a reloader needs is repeatability, dependability and sensitivity, not fantastic absolute accuracy anyway. It's rare for a digital anything to offer all of those qualities.

We develop our loads with our scale. If it's repeatable, every weighed charge will be identical and we need that; most digitals drift. If it's dependable we can duplicate a charge not just next week or next month but in ten or fourty years; only beam scales will do that. If it's sensitive it will react immediately and smoothly with change so we can use a trickler to bring up a charge to a specific point; beams do that easily but few digitals will.

While we're here, scale "test weights" sound great, and they were a raging fad years ago, but I differ with Ron here. They really aren't needed and don't help much, IMHO. If your scale says your 5.0 or 65.5 gr charges are actually 4.9 or 65.7 gr. it won't matter so long as you duplicate the end result every time. There's nothing on a beam scale to cause calibration to shift during use and there are no knobs to turn to correct calibration anyway. I suspect those who bought the things used them until the "new" wore off and hardly touched them afterwards. You may want to weigh a plain steel - or brass - washer and mark it for a spot test weight to keep a running check to confirm nothing changes over the years; something between 250 and 400 gr. would do nicely. My 1010's range extender weight is 260.9 gr and it hasn't varied in all the years since '65.

Finally, using a beam scale that's sitting on the bench top is the pits. You'll love it if you put your nice scale up near chin or nose level so you can read it easily/quickly. A sturdy shelf or box works great.

Good luck!
 
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They really aren't needed and don't help much, IMHO. If your scale says your 5.0 or 65.5 gr charges are actually 4.9 or 65.7 gr. it won't matter so long as you duplicate the end result every time.
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Is this correct? Seems like not really a good idea to have an inaccurate scale, or maybe if it's not off by much their would be no danger of an overcharge..? I am new to reloading.
 
Potatohead said:
Is this correct? Seems like not really a good idea to have an inaccurate scale, or maybe if it's not off by much their would be no danger of an overcharge..? I am new to reloading.
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Repeatability of the scale is important but...

If you never changed scales the actual weight it shows would not matter as long as you can work up loads safely.

But there will be a time when the scale needs to be replaced or you use another one and then the accuracy of the scale becomes very important.

If the weight your scale shows is off when you change scales, your charge weighed on the new scale may then be too heavy and move into dangerous levels.

You want your scale to read the correct weight.
 
Is this correct?
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Yes. It is why we work up our own loads from a very safe starting point for our different firearm each and every time we make a change. Even if you have the same model of firearm as I, they aren't identical in chamber and fit because of machining tolerances.

Same deal with components, powder lots, powder measures and scales(And check weights!). It is really not important if your 5-0-5 says 5.0 and my Lyman M5 says 4.9, because we worked up our loads in a systematic safe manner.

We'll likely never know how accurate or inaccurate our scales are, they aren't fine grade professional quality instruments(those break in to the 4 digit price range), they are good enough and consistent enough for reloading as long as we do our part.

For the record, I have a $120 digital, it is good for weighing bullets and finished rifle rounds. I am faster with my beam once it is set.
 
Yes. It is why we work up our own loads from a very safe starting point for our different firearm each and every time we make a change. Even if you have the same model of firearm as I, they aren't identical in chamber and fit because of machining tolerances.

Same deal with components, powder lots, powder measures and scales(And check weights!). It is really not important if your 5-0-5 says 5.0 and my Lyman M5 says 4.9, because we worked up our loads in a systematic safe manner.
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Gotcha..I get what you're saying...it makes sense when I think about it that way. I still think I will at least feel better if my scale is accurate though.
 
Potatohead said:
Is this correct? Seems like not really a good idea to have an inaccurate scale, or maybe if it's not off by much their would be no danger of an overcharge..? I am new to reloading.
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No, you don't want an inaccurate scale. However, there are a few quirks to this entire powder weighing scenario. Here is what I believe ranger335v was getting at which I omitted from my earlier post.

Loading manuals can be interesting and very, very useful books. There was just a discussion (one of many) as to reference to COL in loading manuals. The COL is a guideline and not a gospel number. The suggested powder charge weights are also a guideline. That does in no way mean go ahead and start with a maximum powder weight charge. You tailor your loads using the manual and seeing what works for you in a specific gun. Here is an example of what I am getting at. Ever notice how manual to manual we see changes in the min or max loads?

My Number 12 Speer manual 223 Remington using H335 powder with a 52 grain HPBT, the test gun is a Ruger 77 MKII 22" Barrell :
Min. 24.5 grains 2879 FPS (in their test gun)
Max. 26.5 grains 3129 FPS (in their test gun) Compressed Load

My Sierra 50th Anniversary Edition 223 Remington using H335 powder with a 52 grain HPBT and the test gun is a Colt AR-15A2 HBAR 20" Barrel:
Min 24.1 grains 2700 FPS (in their test gun)
Max 26.8 grains 3100 FPS (in their test gun)

Note the Min and Max aren't the same. Here is what I ended up with loading 26.1 grains with BR4 primers, same bullets as above.I got 3397 FPS mean average with 5 shots using a home built Remington 700 action and a 26" barrel.

The manuals were a guide with a good starting point allowing me to work up safe loads for my gun. Interesting is Speer calls their max a compressed load and Sierra doesn't. I must have been using a long drop tube! :)

I annotated that the load shot extremely well. Does it matter if my load I show as 26.1 grains was really 26.1? Not really as long as I can duplicate it. If I load 50 rounds and weigh each charge and use my trickler it doesn't matter (to any great extent) 26.0, 26.1 or even 26.2 as long as they were uniform and consistent.

When it comes to precision we can define it as a high measure of repeatability and define accuracy as unbiased precision.

So the manuals are a guide. We do not toss them out the window. Where too many new loaders seem to go wrong is they fail to read the preface and parts of the manual that define how things work. Many choose rather to go right to a caliber and start throwing powder. Bad habit that leads to developing bad reloading practices.

Just My Take...
Ron
 
A piece of equipment's ability is measured in accuracy and precision.

Accuracy is the ability of the equipment to produce the desired results on average.

Precision is the variability around the results.

So, a scale could be accurate, the average of all times something is weighed average of all measurements is what it actually weighs.

But, its precision is lousy as each time the object is weighed, the results have a high variability.

A scale could have low accuracy, the average of weights of an object is not equal to what the object actually weighs but it could have high precision as each time the object is weighed, the variability of the measurements is small.

What we want is a highly accurate scale with a high degree of precision.
 
So the manuals are a guide. We do not toss them out the window. Where too many new loaders seem to go wrong is they fail to read the preface and parts of the manual that define how things work. Many choose rather to go right to a caliber and start throwing powder. Bad habit that leads to developing bad reloading practices.
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I gotcha. I'm on the same page. Thanks guys
 
I've used a hornady gs-1500 since I started reloading again in California.

I recently got a 505 in trade, and have compared weights on it from time to time- the gs-1500 is spot on.

The biggest difference between analog and digital I've noticed is rounding.

Here's an example to help you understand that :

I have a load that is 5.2 grains of w231. Easy.

However, on the digital ( the ones less than $1k anyway) a tenth of a grain accuracy is the best you get...

If this charge was 5.28 grains, it would read 5.3 , if it was 5.26 it would read 5.3 , if it was 5.17 it would read 5.2

It simply rounds up or down based on the nearest available decimal place.

Analog scales like the 505 don't do this- it will bob up and down until it has a solid decimal places' weight, provided you have it setup correctly.

Does that .01'th of powder matter ? Depends on the person. It hasn't mattered to me a bit. It might drive a benchrester bonkers- I dunno.
 
Great responses folks, thank you for your time and effort. Somewhere in my early reading I saw to put scale on shelf. It was great advice. Thanks again.
 
LeftyTSGC said:
I bought a MyWeigh Gempro 250.

http://www.myweigh.com/gempro.html

it ran me $129 inlcudes shipping and comes with a no BS life time warranty. If anything goes wrong just mail it back and they will replace it.

I thought it was a good deal with a life time warranty.
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A little off topic but several years ago my friend shot his Dillon scale. He learned to treat all guns as loaded. Anyway he shot his scale with a .380 and killed it good!

I told him to send it to Dillon and they would send him a new scale. At first he was too embarrassed. Fine I told him, give it to me. I am sure Dillon (and others) see al sorts of weird damaged scales and what do I care if they have a laugh? He broke down and sent it and they sent him a brand new scale. Absolutely free. People shoot their chronographs all the time, but a scale shot with a .380 had to be something new. :)

That is a no BS warranty!

Ron
 
After seeing the Lee scale that came with my press kit, I immediately went out and picked up a Dillon Eliminator scale. It's insanely easy to use, even for a noobie like me. I may invest in a nice digital later on, but the Dillon beam scale gives me all I need for now and didn't detract too much from my ability to buy bullets and powder.
 
Buy some check weights. I ran for years w/o them. Had a Lyman scale with a loose center pivot, took a while to find that out.

Once you have a check weight set, you can evaluate what you are running and not have to ask for internet advice which is worth what you paid for it. ;)
 
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