School shootings, a good read

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jmr40

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Just found this on CNN's website. We need more discussion like this

https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2019/07/us/ten-years-of-school-shootings-trnd/

Not a single call for gun control, just facts about who, where, and why. Some nuggets from the piece.

With little federal data on school shootings, it’s hard to pinpoint what’s behind the recent increase. But law enforcement experts believe one reason could be diminished coping skills, which can prompt people to lash out in violent ways.

“Today we have kids who are so isolated inside -- playing video games and glued to their (tablets) and everything else -- that they don’t learn those problem-solving skills,”

. “And as more of them (shootings) occur, it becomes sort of acceptable as ‘that’s a way I can settle my grievances.’”

“You need those interventions that reduce gun violence and save lives, but that also protect the rights of law-abiding gun owners,”

I'm a retired teacher who still substitutes and I have school age grand kids so I'm pretty involved with schools and school age kids. I think there is a lot of truth to the why. It is good to see a major news media outlet giving this an honest look.
 
My personal take is:

1. Kids (and others) have lost respect for other people
2. Kids (and others) have become more isolated as their attention is dominated by TV, Computers and video games and less by community and team activities.
3. That is directly correlated to the rise of secularism and the diminishing role of religion in our society.
 
We don't do religion. So let's not start a comparative cost benefit analysis of those who died or didn't die because of religious beliefs. There are complex analyses of the school shooters. Also, let's not project our own political beliefs as causality.

That's a hint.
 
The isolation issue is important, but so is mental illness. The majority of the school shooting cases have been kids with diagnosed conditions either taking a prescribed drug or having issues going on/off the medications. Most all of the commonly prescribed psychotropic medications have explicit black box warning now about causing suicidal and psychotic episodes in adolescents when starting or stopping the medication. People put kids on these drugs to help them. Sadly this is probably what tips some of these kids over the line.
 
Illinoisburt has touched on an important matter ---- children and drugs. Today, even children with no apparent organic deficiencies, but may have simple disciplinary problems, are often treated with drugs.
The problem? A number of these drugs have unknown effects on their brains and minds as the brain isn't adult yet. The drugs were tested on ADULTS and the effects well known. So they get used on the kids. But in them there are often unknown side effects --- or maybe they ARE KNOWN --- --- because the cable and over the air media and newspapers cover the results when these kids go sideways with a gun at their school.

I won't claim every teen who does this has commited the crime because !DRUGS! but I think it's a large factor. Others here have already listed what may be legitimate alternate factors.
 
The isolation issue is important, but so is mental illness. The majority of the school shooting cases have been kids with diagnosed conditions either taking a prescribed drug or having issues going on/off the medications. Most all of the commonly prescribed psychotropic medications have explicit black box warning now about causing suicidal and psychotic episodes in adolescents when starting or stopping the medication. People put kids on these drugs to help them. Sadly this is probably what tips some of these kids over the line.

I rarely go to CNN for any "news" and there is a reason. The organization has shown itself repeatedly interesting in pushing agendas rather than objective reporting of facts that could be gathered quickly through the internet. First, I would caution folks to take the info presented here with a grain of salt. The key words are shooting on a school premises--it notes that a number of these are after school and on Fridays--thus these shootings are probably related to perps and victims being in gang and drug related activities. Conflating criminal actions versus massacres such as Newtown is purposefully done to inflate statistics. If you strip out gang related activity and drug related shootings, I would suspect a far lower total. The idea that school massacre type activities is debunkable other than these events have been more frequent since Columbine. In their database, there are three real mass shooting events, in TX, FL, and CT. Both the FL and CT case were directly related to individuals that should have been committed to mental hospitals. The TX case is a bit more difficult but there is a prosecutorial motion to examine the shooting for mental illness.

They also included BB guns in their counts of actions which while not insignificant are not the main reason that people are fearful of schools. Note that they did not include assaults with other weapons such as knives, clubs, chairs, body parts, etc. nor did they give the facts in the arrests and backgrounds thereof.

CNN Definition of school shooting
" Since there is no single definition for what qualifies as a school shooting, our team set the following parameters: The shooting must involve at least one person being shot (not including the shooter); and the shooting must occur on school property, which includes but is not limited to, buildings, athletic fields, parking lots, stadiums and buses. Our count includes accidental discharge of a firearm as long as the first two parameters are met, except in instances where the sole shooter is law enforcement or a security officer. Our count also includes injuries sustained from BB guns, since the Consumer Product Safety Commission has identified them as potentially lethal." Note that this doesn't rule out criminal activities by folks that are not children that simply happens at a school premises. Roughly 70 or so of the shootings in their list of 171 did not occur during school hours for example which means it is probably not students doing this.

This is agenda driven "research" with enough facts that if you read it quickly come up with our children are threatened by mass shootings. Their "database" is shocking lacking other than the date, times, and victims--no causal links so you are led to believe it is access to firearms that is the problem.
 
I understand that many perceive CNN as a slanted source of information. But this article is to the point and lets give credit where it is due. They clearly state that most school shootings are not "mass shootings"

“Those mass shootings, the headline-grabbing ones, are really, really a small fraction of them," says Cole. "It’s more of the everyday violence, that unfortunately I think we’ve become a bit immune to, that produce the large numbers.”

Roughly 70 or so of the shootings in their list of 171 did not occur during school hours for example which means it is probably not students doing this.

But they happened on school grounds, at school sponsored events. Whether or not they were current students is irrelevant. The kid who shot up the school in Florida was no longer a student there.

At predominately black schools, students are more likely to experience a shooting after 4 p.m., typically during an after-school event.

I don't know exactly what it means, but found it interesting to note that according to the data predominately black school shootings happen late in the school day and at predominately white schools they happen in the morning. My guess is that the morning shootings are planned, while the afternoon shootings are more the result of an argument. And there are school related activities going on until 7-11 PM on most school days. I coached for 30 years and there are a surprising number of teachers, coaches and students still on campus very late on most days.

This is agenda driven "research" with enough facts that if you read it quickly come up with our children are threatened by mass shootings.

Didn't read that at all.

Mental illness is a factor, but where I strongly agree with the article is the lack of coping skills with kids today. Face to face interaction and problem solving are becoming a lost art. Kids would rather communicate via text than face to face.

The NPR reports indicates that a problem with ratty data exists

That is one of the major points of the CNN article.

But we don’t know what works … and we’re not looking. That’s the disgrace.”

There isn't a single word in the CNN article blaming guns for the problem. In fact the only time guns are mentioned is to point out that the rights of law abiding gun owners should be protected.

You're reading WAAY too much into this. If the exact article were written word for word from another source you'd see it completely differently.
 
I understand that many perceive CNN as a slanted source of information. But this article is to the point and lets give credit where it is due. They clearly state that most school shootings are not "mass shootings"





But they happened on school grounds, at school sponsored events. Whether or not they were current students is irrelevant. The kid who shot up the school in Florida was no longer a student there.



I don't know exactly what it means, but found it interesting to note that according to the data predominately black school shootings happen late in the school day and at predominately white schools they happen in the morning. My guess is that the morning shootings are planned, while the afternoon shootings are more the result of an argument. And there are school related activities going on until 7-11 PM on most school days. I coached for 30 years and there are a surprising number of teachers, coaches and students still on campus very late on most days.



Didn't read that at all.

Mental illness is a factor, but where I strongly agree with the article is the lack of coping skills with kids today. Face to face interaction and problem solving are becoming a lost art. Kids would rather communicate via text than face to face.



That is one of the major points of the CNN article.



There isn't a single word in the CNN article blaming guns for the problem. In fact the only time guns are mentioned is to point out that the rights of law abiding gun owners should be protected.

You're reading WAAY too much into this. If the exact article were written word for word from another source you'd see it completely differently.

Nope, I would not and am not. Look, it is not your fault that CNN did a shoddy job of it. When a story is based on the data, the data presented and the story should mesh. They do not. Second, as someone familiar with school violence, criminal justice, etc, when you only present violence coming from a firearm (and include bb guns as such) then you are missing a large percentage of the day to day violence in today's schools. Take your average University or school, the feds require schools to report crimes on campus. Here is an example report https://safety-security.uchicago.edu/police/data_information/violent_crime_report/

Here is something not mentioned AT ALL by CNN in a report on school violence,
"School Crime Trends
Violent victimization among students largely has mirrored the national decrease in violent victimization over the past two decades. Student-reported violent victimization at school has decreased 75% since 1995, from a rate of 75.6 violent victimizations per 1,000 students to 18.9 per 1,000 in 2014. Serious violent victimization at school has also decreased by 69% since 1995, from a rate of 11.5 serious violent victimizations per 1,000 students, to 3.6"
Source: Uncle Sam at https://ovc.ncjrs.gov/ncvrw2017/images/en_artwork/Fact_Sheets/2017NCVRW_SchoolCrime_508.pdf

and this from the Obama era DOJ,

"School shootings are frightening and make headlines. However, today’s students are less likely to be threatened or injured with a weapon, including a gun, at school than they were 10 years ago. Since 1992, the percentage of youth homicides occurring at school has not changed, comprising less than 3 percent of the total number of youth homicides. Current data do not report on whether the number of school shootings has increased, but student weapon carrying and weapon-related injuries have decreased." https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/251173.pdf

This is a statewide report from VA on k12 school safety incidents and there is little to suppose VA is radically different than most states,
"Weapon Incidents (Table 5, p. 22)
A total of 2,587 weapons incidents were reported in 2010-2011, representing 1.46 percent
of all incidents reported. The category of knife possession (blade with more than 3 inches)
represented 32.24 percent (834) of all weapons incidents, and the category of other
weapons was under 25 percent [19.68% (509)]
. Incidents reported as “other weapons”
involve instruments or objects to inflict harm on another person that do not fall within other
offense definitions. Possession of razor blades/box cutters/knife (less than 3 inches)
constituted 21.49 percent (556) and possession of toy or look-alike guns constituted 9.86
percent (255) of weapons incidents. Constituting a little more than six percent of weapons
incidents was possession of fireworks/firecrackers/stink bombs (158). BB guns constituted
4.52 percent (117)
, ammunition 2.82 percent (73), possession of chemical substance 0.81
percent (21) and handguns 0.81 percent (21)."
http://www.pen.k12.va.us/statistics...iscipline_crime_violence/10_annual_report.pdf

I am a bit lazy today due to other business but I found all of these links in less than about 5 minutes using a bog standard browser search. It took me about 15 minutes to derive all of the info above and put it into this post. It is actually taking me longer to type my comments than it did to find this. So, we see that CNN's story is seriously incomplete, focuses on firearms, adds in their database bb guns which from VA seems to be about six times more prevalent in possession than firearms, and so on. If they were simply incompetent, they would have cut and pasted from the relevant government reports that at the top of a google search. Instead, they create their own "database" wow from a lexis news article search and a few reports, leave out any context of who was charged, were they schoolchildren, what was the general causes of the shootings, etc. To take the time and effort that CNN did, they are hiding by omission that school violence in general is down by a massive amount from the 1990's and those using weapons are down as well. They are hiding the fact that many of their "school" shootings may not have been school related at all but merely normal urban violence. Furthermore, they are ignoring both gang affiliations and drug dealing of which quite a few folks as students engage in. Gangs and drug involvement as users or sellers involve quite a heightened risk of violence either as a perp or as a victim. They also mention as you cited that SOME, not all, occurred at or around school events but their data does not say anything about that. My suspicion then is that it is rather low. The inference is also that the violence is done by students but that is not necessarily so--e.g. CT murderer was NOT a student for example. Thus, any shootings by anyone at anytime that occurred on loosely defined school premises were counted in the database without distinction in that data.

In this case, this is a textbook example of how the news media manipulates people into their agenda by omitting facts and data that do not support their thesis. The cruder web sources use clickbait titles and usually cite some junk research commissioned by gun banners, CNN does not quite do that here but instead presents a thoroughly misleading compilation article that leads people to conclude wow there is a lot of school violence and something needs to be done. Coincidentally, all of the data presented is gun violence which is relatively rare instead of other kinds of violence. What if for example, I included knifings on school premises and there was roughly 10 times the number of shooting victims--wouldn't you conclude that knives were a more serious problem than handguns.

I actually review articles based on methodology as part of my job and my own research has in the past involved significant statistical methods and yes it has been published.

In my professional opinion, their data presented does not support the text as I actually pulled their "database" into excel, did a few sorts, etc. What jumped out initially is that many of these shootings occurred in urban areas and significantly after hours. What you are reading about the school events, etc. is not present in the data itself. All the dataset records is the location, the date, the school, the number killed, injured, etc., race, urban/local, and time. No notifications as to charges, disposition, etc. exist in their database nor any reasons for the shootings. Notably to make the data more difficult to sort, the person making it did not use a 24 hr clock or a separate AM/PM indicator for time data which is std. for this kind of research.

Journalists and journalism exists to "make a difference"--not to report the news. Read it accordingly.
 
The fact that we even have to discuss school shootings, regardless one's preferred talking head news channel, sickens me. We did bomb drills when I was a kid (I'm sure hiding under our desks would've protected us if the Russkies nuked us. Lol), but school was always considered a safe place. My kids did active shooter drills on a regular basis. Something is seriously wrong with society. And it's not a right or left thing. Though some try real hard to make it one. Don't know what the answer is or should be, but I am positive it's gonna require all Americans working together to get our **** together.

Be well folks
 
My personal take is:

1. Kids (and others) have lost respect for other people
2. Kids (and others) have become more isolated as their attention is dominated by TV, Computers and video games and less by community and team activities.
3. That is directly correlated to the rise of secularism and the diminishing role of religion in our society.

I agree totally with your take on the problem.
 
CNN as a serious source of Any controversial information? Never.

And what true journalists are they known to have on their staff?

I can't imagine allowing their opinions to be confused with facts. Any issue regarding gun ownership in America, or even one single situation involving a gun being used, is always very misrepresented.

Even if they appear to present complete information, they will distort the context and will not tell you about it. Smoke and mirrors.
 
Your kid is in more danger on and/or around the school bus than your kid ever will be endangered by a school shooting.
 
We have some real social problems to work on. Blaming firearms is a cop out that lets some people blame an external inanimate object rather than recognizing and working on the internal real problems.

Absolutely!
 
The increase in gun crime in some sections of the population is due to social conditions. Unfortunately, the solutions to such are immersed and inseparable from the political tribal wars. The suggested solutions will be based on political pre-existing biases as compared to empirically determined solutions.
 
But law enforcement experts believe one reason could be diminished coping skills, which can prompt people to lash out in violent ways.

I've been saying this for over two decades. Just little old me, no college education, no degree in psychology, no nothin', just tough life experience (plenty of it) and open eyes. These people are part of a society that has been promised a lot, assured of a lot, and has been coddled a lot. They've been told that they're entitled to a part of what others have, that "everyone gets a trophy", that their shortcomings or failures are somehow society's fault, and that they deserve some credit for the successes of others. They've been told that any slight against them is a "micro-aggression", and that more than one such "micro-aggression" amounts to bullying, harassment, or even criminal activity. They've been promised a "societal support system" to handle all of this.

Because none of this crap is realistic, and can never be so implemented, these young people have never been set up to cope with the very losses they are being set up to experience.
 
I notice that much of what we are talking about is the mere possession of "involve instruments or objects to inflict harm on another person." I am reminded of my daughter. In the mid 2000s' she returned to her locker to see a note on top of her Makarov, written on police letterhead, telling her that she was not to leave a pistol in her locker.

As I understand it, with the revitalization of the school shooting programme the school arms locker is again available for students to use, but it was not available when she attended.

Of course, this was Nothern, not Southern, California.

Back to the topic, I recently finished Why Kids Kill: Inside the Minds of School Shooters by Peter Langman. It provides a set of case studies of three categories of school shooters: psychopathic, psychotic, and traumatized. It does provide an interesting point of view. Early in the book, in a discussion of the reality that there are no single causes, he says this about firearms:
Why-Kids-Kill-Page-5.png
 
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Illinoisburt writes:

The majority of the school shooting cases have been kids with diagnosed conditions either taking a prescribed drug or having issues going on/off the medications.

Actually, the majority of the "school shooting cases" cited in the article didn't involve the kinds of incidents of which you, or most people, think when they hear the term. Many of them didn't even occur on school property. In these types of "studies", especially by biased reporters, the term "school shooting" frequently includes instances in which a school only need be impacted by the shooting to be counted. I've seen the following examples counted:

A student shooting another across the street from the school, outside school hours.
A police shooting of a robbery suspect they had chased into a school zone (but not onto school property), prompting a school lockdown.
A homeowner shooting a suspect who forced his way into the home (across from a school) after being pursued by police, prompting a lockdown.
A drive-by shooting across from or near a school, in which bullets impacted on school property.
A domestic-violence shooting by the spouse of a school employee who entered the school and shot his targeted victim.

All of these are duplicated, sometimes several times over, throughout the study period. The cases everyone wants to dwell on, of "troubled white kids armed to the teeth with one or more semi-automatic 'assault' weapons gunning down scores of random victims" amount to a scant fraction of the incidents profiled overall.
 
The isolation issue is important, but so is mental illness. The majority of the school shooting cases have been kids with diagnosed conditions either taking a prescribed drug or having issues going on/off the medications. Most all of the commonly prescribed psychotropic medications have explicit black box warning now about causing suicidal and psychotic episodes in adolescents when starting or stopping the medication. People put kids on these drugs to help them. Sadly this is probably what tips some of these kids over the line.
I find this to be very true. From the ages of 8 to about 13, about 5 years, my folks were going through a very loud and bitter seperation/divorce scenario.


There was no peace in the house and I wasnt getting much sleep and the toll it was taking on me became quite obvious at school. They put me on more medications than I can even count and they all took a tremendous toll on me physically/emotionally whatever. They made me feel like a shell and I wasnt myself.

Thankfully I got fed up with being a pharmaceutical test rat and eventually discontinued use of all these crazy meds they had me on but as a grown man looking back it's not all that hard to imagine how these kids get so mixed up so much they go berserk... Stop over medicating these kids would be a good start..
 
I've been saying this for over two decades. Just little old me, no college education, no degree in psychology, no nothin', just tough life experience (plenty of it) and open eyes. These people are part of a society that has been promised a lot, assured of a lot, and has been coddled a lot. They've been told that they're entitled to a part of what others have, that "everyone gets a trophy", that their shortcomings or failures are somehow society's fault, and that they deserve some credit for the successes of others. They've been told that any slight against them is a "micro-aggression", and that more than one such "micro-aggression" amounts to bullying, harassment, or even criminal activity. They've been promised a "societal support system" to handle all of this.

Because none of this crap is realistic, and can never be so implemented, these young people have never been set up to cope with the very losses they are being set up to experience.

Micro aggressions are worth micro attention.
 
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