Scientists Slam US Plasma Weapon

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Removing non-lethal options, drastically increases the chance of lethal options being used. It's one thing to say how terrible it is to inflict pain, it's another to imply we shouldn't consider it because killing it much better.

IMHO if this technology works we will see it in the hands of law enforcement within 10 years.



Scientists Slam US Plasma Weapon
The Register ^ | 03/03/2005 | Lester Haines

Posted on 03/03/2005 11:09:09 PM

Scientists have reacted angrily to the revelation that the US military is funding development of a weapon intended to deliver an "excrutiating bout of pain" from over a mile away. The "Pulsed Energy Projectile" (PEP) device "fires a laser pulse that generates a burst of expanding plasma when it hits something solid", the New Scientist explains. If you happen to be that something solid, then you get temporarily incapacitated without suffering permanent injury.

That's the theory, but pain reasearchers fear that the proposed riot control weapon could be used for torture, and further doubt a solid ethical basis for the research. Andrew Rice, a consultant in pain medicine at Chelsea and Westminster Hospital in London, said: "Even if the use of temporary severe pain can be justified as a restraining measure, which I do not believe it can, the long-term physical and psychological effects are unknown."

What those physical effects might be is the subject of a University of Central Florida in Orlando study which aims to "optimise" the effect of PEPs as noted in a 2003 US Naval Studies Board review of non-lethal weapons. The review outlined how PEPs produced "pain and temporary paralysis" in animal tests, apparently as a result of "an electromagnetic pulse produced by the expanding plasma which triggers impulses in nerve cells".

The new study was exposed by biological weapons research watchdog the Sunshine Project, which obtained papers relating to the programme under the US's Freedom of Information Act. One research contract between the Office of Naval Research and the University of Florida in Gainsville is snappily entitled: "Sensory consequences of electromagnetic pulses emitted by laser induced plasmas".

New Scientist notes that the contract was heavily censored before release, but reveals that researchers are requested to investigate "optimal pulse parameters to evoke peak nociceptor activation", ie, how to cause the maximum pain possible without killing the subject.

One scientist working on the project - Martin Richardson, a laser expert at the University of Central Florida - declined to comment to New Scientist. Another - Brian Cooper, an expert in dental pain at the University of Florida - attempted to downplay his involvement by saying: "I don't have anything interesting to convey. I was just providing some background for the group."

According to John Wood of University College London, an expert in how the brain perceives pain, both Richardson and Cooper and all those working on the PEP research project should face censure because any weapon resulting from the programme "could be used for torture".
 
"could be used for torture".
Shucks - like without that there are no current means of torture?? Right! :rolleyes:.

Geez ... from what I have seen - the human species is adept at finding torture ''devices'' and ''methods'' without recourse to any hi tech dealies. I mean, nail pulling, genital shocks, burning .... the list is already 100's of ''methods'' long. So there might be one more ........... :uhoh:

Weaponry is never very ''person-friendly'' ... ain't designed to be so.
 
Scientists? Who are this "Scientists"? Is someone that says ..."I fear", ..."I believe" a scientist?

Just another example of Kangaroo-anti-science. Where are the facts? Oh, well, why rely on facts when I can fear, or believe, or feeeeel... It's for the chiiildren, you know!
 
According to John Wood of University College London, an expert in how the brain perceives pain, both Richardson and Cooper and all those working on the PEP research project should face censure because any weapon resulting from the programme "could be used for torture".
Beam me up Scotty, there is no intelligent life on this planet.
 
Guess we should ban baseball bats, golf clubs, salad forks, toothpicks, sewing needles, cigarette lighters and amounts of water over 1/2 pint as they 'could be used as weapons of torture'.

These folks are NOT candidates for mensa!
 
We should bookmark this post and check back when the technology hits the street to see if anyone's opinion changes when the BATFE, FBI or some other Fed agency if using it on the public. Anyone want to take odds on Joe Citizen being able to get one. After all the 2nd clearly didn't cover plasma weapons :scrutiny:
 
We should bookmark this post and check back when the technology hits the street to see if anyone's opinion changes when the BATFE, FBI or some other Fed agency if using it on the public.

Well, given that it is a crowd control weapon, I don't think my support for it's development and use (all standard disclaimers due to lack of thorough testing etc.) will change.

I seem to have negotiated 34 years without running into any of the other major crowd control weapons (in other than a training basis) to include:

Rubber Bullets/Buckshot
Bean Bag Rounds
Big Pepper Foggers
Tear Gas Grenades
36" Hardwood Riot Truncheons
Police Shield Walls
Water Cannons
Attack Dogs
Mounted Cops
Interlocking Machinegun Fire

Did I forget any?

So, anyway, I figure I'm pretty safe from this beam gizmo as well.
 
Interlocking Machinegun Fire

Bwahahaha!

BTW, if you read the Star Trek: The Next Generation techincal manual you will find that the hand phaser has sixteen settings. Setting number five will disintegrate humanoids. :D
 
So if using pain(or the threat of pain) to modify behavior is a bad thing, then the spankings I got when I was a child must have been a bad thing. Never mind that they worked(Damn, my Dad's got BIG hands!) :scrutiny:
 
These kinds of developments worry me, because no matter what they might say there's no guarantee that one day they might not consider legitimate protests to be "riots." Just imagine tax protesters or gun owners peaceably objecting to government actions being threatened with such weapons. Would you want your family, your wife, or your children affected by such a device?

The litmus test for any new technology should be to ask ourselves how we would feel with such power in the hands of a dictator because the history of man has shown that all governments, no matter how well intentioned and honest to begin with, eventually decline into tyranny and oppression if given enough time.
 
... all those working on the PEP research project should face censure because any weapon resulting from the programme "could be used for torture".
Shows what scientists making pronouncements outside their own fields can end up doing if they aren't careful. They aren't possessed of any greater expertise in philosophy than the average person who reads a lot.

It's best not to skate on thin ice with your foot in your mouth.
 
One45,

I guess my take on it is that they already have so many potentially dangerous weapons already in hand, what, realistically, is one more?

I mean, if "they" get to the point where they are abusing peaceful protestors, (thus contravening the Constitution to an incredible degree) it isn't like one new weapon is going to be the big concern. Given that kind of government they're as likely to use the machineguns as bother with non-permanent methods.

Think of it as gun control, it doesn't work because there's already so many weapons out there AND if someone wants to use one in a crime anyway, forbidding them from having it is useless.

If we accept that future tyranny problems are beyond control if they maybe someday occur, we might as well take advantage of the technology to help our troops and officers in the real world here and now.
 
The litmus test for any new technology should be to ask ourselves how we would feel with such power in the hands of a dictator.
Well, that pretty much covers everything from the Red Ryder BB gun to ICBM's. Oh, NEW technology. O.K. We swear to never develop anything which might give us an advantage over our enemies. Kumbiyah.

Look who is complaining.
John Wood of University College London
:barf:
 
one45auto said

The litmus test for any new technology should be to ask ourselves how we would feel with such power in the hands of a dictator. If the answer is no, then all plans should be scrapped because the history of man has shown that all governments, no matter how well intentioned and honest to begin with, eventually decline into tyranny and oppression.

and this is the same thing that was said about guns
 
Well perhaps these scientists just don't want another Bomb. Perhaps they have learned from the 'mistakes' of amoral scientists of the past.

I don't know how much pain this thing causes but it could be a lot. Think bone searing , blood boiling flayed flesh kind of pain - not something you could survive for more then a few times without braindamage.

Im all for this new weapon.
 
The litmus test for any new technology should be to ask ourselves how we would feel with such power in the hands of a dictator.

If we were to apply such a "litmus test," we'd still be bashing one another over the head with wooden clubs and living in caves. The real test is how effectively we can stop dictators from assuming power.
 
If we were to apply such a "litmus test," we'd still be bashing one another over the head with wooden clubs and living in caves. The real test is how effectively we can stop dictators from assuming power.

No, you've misunderstood my meaning (as have others, I see). If a dictator has a gun and we have guns, the playing field is essentially level so I was not implying that such a test be applied to firearms. Please don't throw out any comments about tanks or artillery because a well armed and determined populace could work around such obstacles. (Also, nuclear weapons would hardly be used by any government in seizing control, as there would be no one left to reign over) I was referring instead to newly emerging technologies such as sound and pulse weapons which are not available to ordinary citizens and to which we would have no defense. If, during an attempt to confiscate your firearms, you're struck by such a pulse weapon it would be pretty difficult to fight back wouldn't it?
 
I think you are overestimating the distinction between these weapons and existing ones. The difference is of degree not really of "kind".

Use your own phrase:

If, during an attempt to confiscate your firearms, you're struck by such a pulse weapon it would be pretty difficult to fight back wouldn't it?

Substitute any of the following for the bold portion and the truth of it still stands.

Flash bangs and tear gas.
Sticky foam.
Rifle bullets.
Crossbow bolt.
Doberman gun.
1000 lb. weight
Fake painted hole in cliff
etc.

In reality, whatever kind of weapon is used, you can either evade it or not and you can either "work around" it or not.

For another example, the base SP's got fancy new FLIR rigs on their trucks and invited my unit to try to get to the "elephant cage" antenna several years back. (geez, could it be a decade ago?)

They patrolled all night and simply by evading the roadbound SUV's and using the terrain (good fieldcraft) they didn't spot any of our teams.

New tech/old tech, it'll either work or it won't, I don't particularly care what it is.

In the meantime, until the .gov actually turns Stalinist, I'd like to give our boys any edge they can get to use overseas against those who need spankin' but not necessarily killin'.
 
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