Scotland: Eight years on and still no gun register

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Harry Tuttle

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Eight years on and still no gun register

BRIAN BRADY
WESTMINSTER EDITOR
[email protected]
http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=1314672004

THE national firearms register ordered in the wake of the Dunblane tragedy will not be in operation until next year at the earliest, eight years after parliament agreed the move in a bid to get a grip on more than a million weapons in private hands across the country.

The government has admitted that the roll-out of the long-delayed project has been suspended until the New Year, after it ran into a series of technical problems during its pilot period.

The huge computer system set up to support the scheme is unable to print firearms certificates, and the police and other authorities involved in the licensing process complained it was running "incredibly slowly".

The father of one of the children murdered by Thomas Hamilton at Dunblane Primary School last night joined opposition politicians and anti-weapons campaigners in condemning the "scandalous delay" in implementing the scheme - a central plank of the legislation rushed through parliament in 1997, in the wake of the murderous attack.

Mick North, whose five-year-old daughter Sophie was among the 16 youngsters shot dead with their teacher during Hamilton’s assault on the Perthshire school, in March 1996, said he was dismayed by the failure to get the project off the ground.

Ministers agreed the national register after post-Dunblane investigations, including the inquiry led by Lord Cullen, found alarming disparities in the records of legally-held firearms, maintained by different police forces across the country. Hamilton had legal certificates allowing him to own the guns in his arsenal.

Latest Home Office figures estimate that 1,325,385 shotguns are held legally in the UK, along with 316,669 other firearms. But the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997, finally pushed through in the early months of the new Labour government, aimed to prevent "unsuitable applicants" from holding guns by creating a central register of everyone who had applied for, been granted or refused a firearm or shot gun certificate.

The flagship project has been hit by delays including problems developing a link between the national DNA database and the criminal records on the police national computer, and a freeze on all new applications to allow an essential upgrade of the police national computer.

The latest complaints over delays in the scheme come four years after the MPs’ Home Affairs Select Committee said it was appalled by the failure to implement a measure it regarded as "absolutely central to the safe and effective operation of the firearms licensing system".

The government signed a contract for the management of the system a year ago, but ministers have now admitted it has already run into problems.

Home Office minister Lord Rooker said: "Clearly, there have been unacceptable delays, but the delays were known about and not easily avoided."

North, who now campaigns against the spread of firearms across British society through the Gun Control Network, said the register was the bare minimum required to help fight the gun culture.

He told Scotland on Sunday: "We are supportive of any measures that make it possible to keep track of firearms, especially as information on the provenance of weapons used in gun crime is sparse. We believe easy availability of guns makes gun crime more likely, and this can only be effectively tackled if the source of the weapons involved is better understood.

"Personally, as the parent of a child who was shot dead by a legal gun owner in Dunblane, I am dismayed that, in spite of Lord Cullen’s recommendations, nearly eight years later this system is still not up and running."

The Police Information Technology Organisation, which is developing the register as part of a national firearms licensing management system that links into the police national computer, finally signed a contract with Anite Public Sector Limited to create the database last October.

The system was declared ready in the summer, but Rooker has now admitted that the project has been suspended until the New Year at the earliest, blaming "a number of technical difficulties".

He said: "A database on its own is not of much business benefit to the police. It has to work. It was set up and operational this summer and was piloted. Two key problems were discovered during the piloting.

"The system was unable to print the certificates, which I understand has mainly been dealt with now. Secondly, the system was running incredibly slowly - much too slowly for the police operational services."

Tory peer Lord Marlesford, who helped write the original legislation, said the government’s failure to meet its obligations was "a scandal bordering on an outrage" and called for an investigation by the parliamentary watchdog.

Liberal Democrat Lord McNally said the delay was totally unacceptable, and claimed many within the Home Office were dragging their feet on purpose.

He added: "The minister had better tell his officials that it is an insult to parliament to ignore an instruction, which the Home Office resisted at the time and many people suspect is still resisting."

But North warned that, even once the register finally becomes available to police forces, it might not fully close the loopholes laid bare by the Dunblane tragedy.

He said: "We recognise that the National Firearms Licensing Management System (NFLMS) will not include all weapons used in crime, partly because of the number of illegal weapons in circulation and also because many of the guns now used in crime do not have to be registered, such as imitations, airguns and so on.

"Nevertheless the system would provide a means of monitoring any movement of weapons from those who hold them legally into the hands of those who use them for crime.

"It also remains a concern that even when the NFLMS is up and running it only covers firearms in England and Wales."

THE WARNING SIGNS WERE THERE

When Thomas Hamilton murdered 16 children and their teacher in Dunblane Primary School on March 13 1996, he did so with four guns he had obtained legally.

The misfit loner was able to get his licences repeatedly renewed despite police being aware of complaints that he was a probable paedophile.

Hamilton was known to have taken pictures at camps he organised of near naked boys in skimpy trunks and there were complaints he had been violent towards children, yet he was never prosecuted and was allowed to continue owning guns.

In his official inquiry into the massacre, Lord Cullen found there was no good reason for Hamilton to have his licence renewed and there was a good case for revoking his licence.

But he said Central Scotland Police’s guidelines on firearms applications were unsatisfactory.

And there are continuing suspicions that Hamilton was protected by Central Scotland police officers. Witnesses told the inquiry police cars often stopped outside Hamilton’s home but the inquiry made no attempt to find out who his friends in the force were.
 
Well, when you live in a socialist state and have a politically popular mandate, of course you drag your feet. After all, since there are limits on how much you can make in a year, why not spread it out as much as possible?

Hilarious observation that there are still loopholes left open by this, like the "criminal owned gun loophole" and the "black market firearm loophole" and the not mentioned but implied "gun control doesnt work as a crime reduction measure loophole."
 
I guess I'm even dumber than I thought. Let's see --

1. A man with a couple of guns killed some kids at a school.

2. The man owned the guns legally, and the appropriate officials had a record of his ownership thereof.

3. The police know who did the shooting, they recovered the weapons used, and they know the weapons were legally owned by the shooter.



I'd like one of the mental midgets in Scotland to explain exactly HOW a multi-million dollar registry of firearms would in any way have averted or prevented the incident from ocurring.
 
it was written into the Bill against the Home Office's wishes. The fact that they have accorded it such a low priority suggests that neither police nor Home Office see it as likely to be of any use. It's a solution looking for a problem.
 
I'd like one of the mental midgets in Scotland to explain exactly HOW a multi-million dollar registry of firearms would in any way have averted or prevented the incident from ocurring.

The object obviously has nothing to do with preventing crimes and everything to do with disarming the law-abiding. I believe it's worth bearing in mind England is the country that lost the American revolution.
 
I weep for the country of my ancestors

I think it's pretty obvious somebody is dragging their feet. Likely on purpose so don't give up hope. I mean we know after Australia, Canada, and Brazil it doesn't take years to get this sort of thing going.

The way I see it, Dunblane set off a political panic attack which allowed for legislation that would be unpopular in a lot of places. The possibility of fighting and winning at the time was near nil, so the play then becomes to stall as long as possible. All well and good, but the existence of this article suggests the anti's on to the game and going to try and push the issue.

The thing is, Have heads cooled enough for a rational discussion on the subjest with an eye towards repeal of the requirement?
 
In a way, I feel that the Brits & Scots deserve whatever crap society they've built if only because they refer to politicians as "Lord". :barf:
 
Glock-A-Roo said:
In a way, I feel that the Brits & Scots deserve whatever crap society they've built if only because they refer to politicians as "Lord". :barf:

Not a politician.
 
Hear this weeping willow whine about the "easy availability of guns.."? In ENGLAND? Great Scott, these people won't ret until the whole freakin' world is made of NERF!
 
I was last in Scotland in 1997. I remember seeing signs encouraging people to turn in their neighbors if known to possess firearms.

It is only a matter of time before they ban bagpipes and tartans again.
 
WT said:
I was last in Scotland in 1997. I remember seeing signs encouraging people to turn in their neighbors if known to possess firearms.

It is only a matter of time before they ban bagpipes and tartans again.

Who is 'they'?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock-A-Roo
In a way, I feel that the Brits & Scots deserve whatever crap society they've built if only because they refer to politicians as "Lord".

Not a politician.
and only a Life Peer - not a proper Lord at all.

It's not gun registration, because they've already got that. It's merely getting the various police departments' computers to talk to each other. At the most, as Agricola said some months ago when somebody raised this subject, it will save the cost of making a phone call - but no more.
 
Seems like there is already a decentralized gun registry. It's merely kept in various police stations. I don't see the difference between keeping a gun registry in a couple places or one place.
 
RevDisk said:
Seems like there is already a decentralized gun registry. It's merely kept in various police stations. I don't see the difference between keeping a gun registry in a couple places or one place.

No great difference, as I said.
 
St Johns - They? Why the Duke of Cumberland, the Butcher of Culloden and his crowd, of course!
 
still not working:-

Which all makes one wonder what has happened to the national firearms database, now seven years in the making and still not functioning. In January, on behalf of the government, Lord Rooker told parliament that it was necessary to suspend the "roll-out" of the new licensing management system "as a result of a number of technical difficulties that came to light during piloting of the system last year". The main thing, he added wearily, is that "we are trying to avoid a computer fiasco - plenty of examples of such fiascos exist that we all know about". Since then, not much seems to have happened. It gives one little confidence that the more sophisticated task of a biometric ID-card database can be pulled off swiftly and without a hitch.

· Home Office Minister Hazel Blears, Charles Clarke's pocket rocket, said in a Commons written answer in June this year that the firearms database was scheduled to "go live" on July 11. It didn't. When July duly came, a Home Office spokeswoman revealed pilot testing of the scheme with different police forces would now start "in September". It won't. "October", understood in the generality, is now vouchsafed as the next putative date. Maybe someone needs driving that extra yard.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/diary/story/0,,1568475,00.html
 
As the resident Scottish nut, I feel I must point out that the people pushing this are people who lost kids in Dunblane, some of whom are members of our (in)famous Gun Control Network, an organization more known for their members than the facts.

Here's a few things you may not know about Hamilton, the nutter from Dunblane:

1: Back then, IIRC, you needed to be registered with a gun club for at least 12 months, with someone vouching for you being responsible, in order to get a licence. Hamilton got kicked out of his local after just over 5 months for reckless and irresponsible conduct (can't remember the exact problems).

The police said "okay", then gave him his permit.

2: There were a few problems with him threatening neighbours among other things. The police filed twice to remove his licence and guns, and twice they were overruled by (IIRC) the commissioner of the police.

3: Even after the facts came out, it was the gun-owners that got it up the ar*e. Funny old world, ain't it?
 
G36-UK, I would be interested to know if there is a country wide demand for more gun control or just a vocal minority as in the US? Is there a difference of viewpoint between the Lowlands and Highlands/Islands?

I know that Scotland doesn't have the bred-in gun culture like in the US, but more of a claidheamh agus sgiath culture instead ;) Or has all of that just been bled out by emigration...?

I've got Highlands on the paternal side and Lowlands (via Ireland) on the maternal side - apparently my ancestors fought each other about 500 years ago :uhoh:
 
And there are continuing suspicions that Hamilton was protected by Central Scotland police officers. Witnesses told the inquiry police cars often stopped outside Hamilton's home but the inquiry made no attempt to find out who his friends in the force were.
Any inquiry probably would have been shut down the higher you went up the supervisor chain, just like NUMOROUS F.B.I. agents were all but threatened with their jobs to "drop it" when they started investigating certain individuals who ended up on the 4 hijacked flights on 9/11. I'm amazed how government apologists will refuse to discuss how and why so much of the federal police force was TRACKING the 9/11 hijackers for MONTHS, while at the same time, almost proecting them by shutting down investigations of THE FEW HONEST F.B.I. agents who ran across the illegal activities. They tracked everywhere they went, what they bought, who they met with, etc [this is not a secret by the way].

OF COURSE Hamilton had "friends" in the police force. The approprate terminology would actually be "handlers." The #1 thing people have GOT to understand is that EVERY government on earth now has a well established, well funded, and very sophisticated dark side that exists solely for a variety of illegal operations. Television shows, which amount to dis-information and pure pro-government propaganda, always depict these elements as "extra patriotic" for their willingness to devote their lives to living the "double life" which is always depicted as exciting and wonderful. The truth, is that these dark side elements are the lowest of the lowest kind of sleaze who have zero good principles or conscience. The other thing that is never talked about in these phony T.V. programs, is that these sometimes heinous and very illegal operations are always, repeat ALWAYS done with the knowledge and approval of the very highest in government, especially whoever runs the particular government agency involved.

It was extremely obvious from day 1 that this U.K. massacre was an agent provocateur attack, allowed and probably assisted by the dark side of government for the purposes of passing this legislation.

...a central plank of the legislation rushed through parliament in 1997, in the wake of the murderous attack.
People all across the globe have been brainwashed into being such government loyalists that they ignore disturbing "coincidences" like that. There used to be a time when people would be outraged if government dared to capitalize on high profile "tragedy." This is sadly all too similar to how the so called "patriot act" was rushed through congress after Sept 11, 2001. I have the utmost disgust for people who allow AND APOLOGIZE FOR government when it exploits emotion, and "rushes" new and rather radical legislation through, and when these people are too cowardly to ask "why the rush, why are you [the government] so eager to benefit [that's what it is, government is benefiting] from ABC high profile tragedy?"

I just have one more thing to say. I have had it up to here *holds hand wayyy above head* with these cowards...these children...these know nothings...these dumb hecklers...these lazy lazy people who always seem to come out of the woodwork when someone dares to talk about REAL [not hollywood] government conspiracy, and they ALWAYS have absolutely NOTHING to say other than grade school mockery such as the phrase "put on your tin foil hats folks." These people have nothing to add. They have no logical arguments to refute the evidence of conspiracy, so they turn to pre teen style mockery statements and then run away so they don't have to actually debate the subject. I have seen this type of gigantic coward rear it's head on this website [government apologists and mindless mockers are a dime a dozen], and before one pops up and shows how little they have to say, let me just get this out of the way right now: Yea, ha ha, you're sooooo funny, yep I'm wearin' my tin foil hat right now, you're amazingly original!

O.K. now that I have dispensed with the children, I look forward to hearing comments from the vast majority on this site who are thinking adults and know full well how government at all levels has become very evil, and that it does in fact engage in systematic high level conspiracy to gain more power and/or consolidate it's illegal powers.
 
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I don't think there's a great majority of people who are anti-gun in the UK, just an awful lot of people who repeat the latest slogans. All those who bleated that "guns are evil!" in '97 have probably moved on to "George Bush is evil!" or whatever nowadays. Considering what a minority sport handgun-shooting was back then, there was no real "voice" of the shooting community to oppose the ban. Plus, it's very hard to oppose the bereaved parents of 16 dead children without coming across as complete scumbags.
I believe there's a journalist who has uncovered evidence that Hamilton was protected by the police and who is trying, against severe obstruction from the police, to get the case examined in court. Can't recall the details, regretably. I don't think that anything will repeal the ban, however. :mad:
 
Reckon that MasterPiece's post demands it's own thread... assuming that the winking smilie ;) at the top holds no significance, that is...
 
Eight year delay eh?

So THAT's what's caused the crime to increase over there. Well then next year, I'm sure we'll see a massive reduction in all crime, and especially violent crimes.
 
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