Seating depth for Rainier .45 ACP TCJ bullets

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20yearvet

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I bought some bulk 230 grain RN TCJ Rainier .45 ACP bullets to get started with some .45 ACP handloads.

In order to get them to chamber, I had to seat the bullet much deeper than the factory WWB 230 Grain FMJ cartridge I used to set up my seating/crimping die.

The OAL I ended up with is around 1.1900 - 1.1950 vs the WWB factory OAL of 1.270.

The handloaded Rainiers "just" fit and I had to help the slide forward on the first round of each of the four 5-round test magazines I fired today (20 rounds total).

I'm concerned that if I seat the Rainiers any deeper I'll be creating too much pressure.

Does anyone else have to seat Rainier TCJ's deeper to get them to chamber?

I'm using once fired Winchester brass, 5.4 grains of Unique and the rounds are fired from my Springfield Armory mil-spec.

I appreciate any insight or observations anyone may have.
 
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Thanks for the info - glad they work for you at 1.250.

Mine just plain won't chamber at any thing above 1.200.

Has anyone else experienced this?

Is it something to be concerned with?
 
My Lee manual list 1.190 as min oal ,for up to 6.0gr unique, for 230gr fmj. Your safe at 5.4, using plated. Do you use a factory crimp die? dont expand the case to far, the bullet should just set on top, not set in, at all. Does your gun chamber WWB? The rainiers have a pointier nose than the Win fmj bullets, but your gun should chamber a reload at 1.250. Good luck!
 
I've run several hundred rounds of WWB 230 gr RN through with no problems at all.

I agree the Rainiers have a pointier nose than the WWB FMJ, but it seems the shoulder is wider than the WWB FMJ and they don't chamber.

I'm using RCBS carbide dies and the RN seater plug. I don't think I'm expanding the case too much, but will raise up the expander a little more.
 
Load data for Rainier TCJ bullets on their web site specify that load data for lead bullets be use, and that you should work up from a load 10% below the max load listed.
http://www.rainierballistics.com/mainframe.htm
Alliant Powder’s site says your proposed load is way over max. http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipeList.aspx?gauge=&gtypeid=1&title=Pistols and Revolvers
Seating of Rainier bullets is best done in two steps. 1. Seat the bullet, and in a separate step 2. crimp the bullet. This is done to prevent shaving material off the bullet, and to prevent over crimping.

First determine that your seating depth is correct by placing an unprimed, uncharged bullet in the chamber of your barrel, adjusting depth until it is correct. See illustration in post #12 of the below link
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218620&highlight=headspace

Next determine the lightest crimp that will keep the bullet from setting back in the case. Crimping these bullets to tightly will cause instability, inaccuracy, and key holing.
 
Load data for Rainier TCJ bullets on their web site specify that load data for lead bullets be use, and that you should work up from a load 10% below the max load listed.
http://www.rainierballistics.com/mainframe.htm
Alliant Powder’s site says your proposed load is way over max. http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloade...nd Revolvers
Click to expand...

Where specifically does the Alliant Powder site indicate I'm over max?

Since Rainier simply refers users to go with lead bullet data, I looked at the Alliant data for "FMC" on the link you posted. They say 6.0 grains of Unique for a 230 Gr FMC bullet. If I reduce that by 10 %, which is .6 grains, I get 5.4 and that's what I'm using.
 
You mention WWB ammo @1.270. Does it feed in your pistol? If so, it would seem that something other than OAL variance is at work here. Maybe not enough crimp?

If the pistol will NOT feed the WWB, you definately have a problem with the mag/gun.

You are crimping the ammo, yes? 45ACP only needs the bell straightened back out to feed well. Roll crimps work fine as long as you stop when the mouth is straight.

Oh, your 5.4 Unique should be just fine. Have fired many WAY over that.
 
I've loaded 500 or so rounds 4.5gr Bullseye, OAL 1.270-1.273" and crimped to .470". These chambered and fired in my 1911's (both S&W), Kahr P45 and XD45 with no problem. I did have to flare the case a little more than the Hornady 230gr TMJ. Recoil may have spotted the issue, maybe a touch more crimp would help. I try to stay close to the max recommended in Lyman's (.473").
 
I think I just fixed my problem

I had way too much crimp and the bullets were deforming.

I just made a few adjustments (less expansion and less crimp) and did some dummy rounds.

The dummy rounds are at 1.268 - 1.270 and they chamber well.

I'll be trying some real ones at the range in the next day or two.

Thanks alot!
 
Load data for Rainier TCJ bullets on their web site specify that load data for lead bullets
Click to expand...

You are looking at data for FMJ with 6.0 gr max and/or JHP with 6.4 max. The 230 L (target) max is 5.0.

If you don't hear a "Warning! Will Robinson; Warning! Will Robinson; Warning! Will Robinson; in the back of your mind, then expect a stout recoil, one of which may or may not damage your weapon. "Do you feel lucky , Punk?" as Dirty Harry said.
 
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Unique and 45 ACP

There are all kinds of loads out there using 5.5-6.0 gr of Unique with plated bullets. I recently contacted Alliant Customer Service about this business and posed this --

" I have 230 gr. copper plated RN 45 ACP bullets. I am using 6.3 gr. Unique. They shoot fine and cycle the gun. Primers look normal. Is this load okay? I would guess they are about 800+ fps."

Alliant had no problem with this load. Here is a load from Handloads.com data base--

"LRN 6.5 gr Unique 870 fps Win LP
Cast from wheelweights in H&G mold; hardball equivalent. Extremely reliable and accurate in all .45s I have used it in.

Email author: tjcasey
See all of tjcasey's loads"

I presently load 5.8 gr Unique to OAL=1.265+-0.002 I use either Berry's or Rainiers. They shoot just fine, cycle my Kimber w 5" bbl, show no primer flattening or big recoil--in fact if I mix them with Win White Box new ammo I can tell them apart very easily--the Win socks me and my loads don't.
 
Shoney - I did not post my question (which wasn't about the number of grains of Unique I'm using) to start an argument:

Your last reply:

To make sure you get this, I am answering to you post on another forum in both places

Quote:
Load data for Rainier TCJ bullets on their web site specify that load data for lead bullets

You are looking at data for FMJ with 6.0 gr max and/or JHP with 6.4 max. The 230 L (target) max is 5.0.

If you don't hear a "Warning! Will Robinson; Warning! Will Robinson; Warning! Will Robinson; in the back of your mind, then expect a stout recoil, one of which may or may not damage your weapon. "Do you feel lucky , Punk?" as Dirty Harry said.
Click to expand...

I've shot these - there wasn't any more felt recoil than WWB factory ammo. Several others have said I'm fine using 5.4 grains of Unique with Rainier plated bullets.

If you are going to make this an issue - give me the specific data you are looking at - not until the post above did you cite the 230 L information.

Rainier does NOT give information on their site - otherwise I'd be using it. They are dodging any liability by saying "use lead data". Lead data is scarce.

My OAL question is answered. Thanks to everyone who helped.
 
The data quoted from alliant's site specifies "target". They also show two listings for 200 grain lead; one that also specifies "target". That leads me to believe that either would be safe for loading a modern firearm that is in good shape. The target data is provided for a lower recoiling round such as one would use for bullseye competition.

I have loaded a bunch of those plated bullets, and treat them no different than any other bullet. Since I normally load for plinking and the like, I use data on the lower end of the recommended loads.

I have had an issue with overall length going into a magazine. I loaded some that were too long and they would not load into the magazine properly. My usual practice is to make a dummy round or two when I am loading a new bullet. I use the dummies to check for chambering and magazine fit.

As you found out, you don't need much crimp, if any, for the 45acp. Just enough to remove the flare that you put on the case to seat. If you don't have one, I would suggest getting a lee factory crimp die.
 
I’m not arguing, just stating facts. In my original post I stated what Rainier says, to use lead bullet loading data, and where you can find that load data. Alliant’s data states you are over max for a lead bullet.

Then you posted
If you are going to make this an issue - give me the specific data you are looking at - not until the post above did you cite the 230 L information.
Click to expand...

I was afraid you either didn’t see LEAD or were incapable of navigating the Alliant site. If you wish to exceed published load data and manufacturers advice, have at it. I hope you don’t get the Darwin Award.
 
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Max pressure for 45 acp is on the attached link

http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm

My Lee manual and Alliant's website both indicate 11800 psi for 5.0 gr
Unique. It is doubtful that an increase of .4 gr would cause you to exceed
21000 psi; over an 80% increase. Of course, you will want to watch for signs of excessive pressure.

Hope this helps!:)
 
Shoney, you have misread the Alliant Data Intent

Shoney: You have missed the point completely! Apparently you did not read my earlier post in this thread about contacting Alliant re this matter. I have done it again, 15 minutes ago, and the answer is below--

What you are reading is not published maximum data for 45 ACP with lead bullets. I just sent an email inquiry to Alliant about the load you pointed out and the response from Ben Ammonette, Customer Service Mgr of Alliant is, and I quote

"The 5 gr charge wt in our tables is a "target" (meaning low pressure, 11,800 psi). We are not claiming that 5 grs is the only safe charge. This is a load suggestion if someone simply wants a target velocity load. Notice that with a 230 gr jacketed bullet, which produces more friction going through the barrel than does a lead bullet, we go up as high as 6.4 grs of Unique, which closely resembles the data in your table. "(He was referring to data from Handloads.com which I sent to him)

You need to get your facts straight before you jump on somebody. NO ONE WANTS TO EXCEED MAX. LIMITS AND WARNING PEOPLE WHEN THEY ARE CLOSE IS VERY RESPONSIBLE. BUT IN THIS CASE, THERE IS NO HINT ANYWHERE THAT THE 5.4 GR LOAD SUGGESTED BY THE THREAD STARTER WAS POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS.

There are dozens of lead bullet loads which can be utilized with plated bullets. I load 5.8 gr Unique with Rainers or Berry's 230 gr. RN plated and they are soft-shooting, accurate loads. I based them on published load data--for example, "The Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading," 5th Ed., gives the following: 45 ACP with 230 gr LRN, OAL=1.245", 5.9 gr Unique at 850 fps. They show a max of 6.3 gr, the "Do not exceed!" limit.

If you take the time to look around you will find more loads.
 
Shoney - Why don't you be more constructive and less condescending?

I'm not stupid. I can read. I'm well educated. I'm smart. I can navigate the web. I can reload. I can shoot. I wear my seatbelt at all time when I drive. I wear a helmet on my motorcycles. I wear ear protection. I wear eye protection. I used a condom before I got married.

Although I'm new to posting on this forum, I am not new to this forum. I have reloaded for over 20 years and have been shooting for 30 years.

The Alliant site you said says "your propose load is way over max" (I left your bad grammar in the quotes) does not say "lead" (I chose not to put "lead" in size 200 bold caps), rather it says 230 L (Target). Is this what you're looking at? I'm supposed to be all knowing like you and assume "L" stands for "Lead"?

Everyone else who posted and PM'd me was helpful.

No, my post count is not very high here. Either is yours.

I shot 20 more of my loads today. Left the range with everything intact and a smile on my face.

The next time you refer any data to me - be specific. You've lost all credibility with me and probably a few others here too.
 
20yearvet:

I posted this over on TFL, figured I might as well post it again here:

I printed out the Rainier load data before they took it off their site.

230gr RN -

OAL: 1.265"

With Unique, min load is 5.3gr for 706 fps (12,400psi) out of a 5" bbl.
Max load is 6.9gr for 925fps (20,000psi).

I know you've gotten your original question answered, just thought you might like Rainier's actual data. Oh, and might I suggest not taking reloading advice from someone that can't count to three?

TWO parting words: Seek Profesional Help
Click to expand...
 
"When antigun liberals can find no substance to their argument, they resort to personal attacks. Does one detect a wounded ego stooping to vitrialic masturbation? TWO parting words: Seek Profesional Help"

I may be the new guy here, but not new to reloading, nor the internet. Your post is in extremely poor taste. You mis-spoke in saying that the loads quoted are inappropriate...why not just admit that you were wrong?

Instead, you use a word that is completely inappropriate for a board that may be viewed by youngsters and or women to defend your misinformation.
I, too, found your original postings unnecessarily caustic. Are you posting to actually help with answers, or to show everyone how much you know?
In this thread, I guess it would be how much you don't know...
 
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