Seating Dies

[Mono]

Hi All

First off, I'm from Africa , so be gentle on me. When reload my ammo, I noticed that whenever I seat my bullets, the LOA is hardly ever the same as the previous bullet. I have a RCBS die set. Please advise if this is a common problem. If i know that my seating die is broke then I will buy a new one, but if all seating dies have the same problem, i will just have keep on going on as I am. Can anyone advise on the accuracy of the Redding die set?

rgds
The Neck

 

[SA Town]

Hey, sorry I cannot be of much help, but at the THR there is a reloading section. Your problem might be solved in a more timely manner if you were to re-post this message over there, or ask a Moderator to move it to that part of the forum.

 

[loadedround]

Mono:
Nothing wrong with dies I'd suspect. Get a decent pair of calipers and check all your cases length. I think they're of different lengths and will need trimming to the same OAL. That should solve your problem.

 

[DIM]

Different seating is usually related to the ogive curve of the bullet that's why you should sort your bullets, first by ogive length then by OAL length then sort them by weight then by bearing surface, but if you only concern about OAL then Ogive is the one you should be more concern then OAL, because having different ogive but same OAL of the bullet would seat them differently.

 

[JimKirk]

http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/sid=66673/sku/Sinclair_Bullet_Comparator__1

Get one of these ^^^ and use it with your calipers to measure OAL using bullet ogive.
Use the correct caliber hole for your gun, you may find that the ogive of your bullets are varying greatly. If you have a magazine(clip), that will one of the limiting factors for OAL using the bullet tip measurement method, tips vary much more than do ogives and do not give a correct measurment most of the time.

Jimmy K

 

[Smokey Joe]

Seating...

Mono--First of all probably nothing wrong with yr Redding dies--that company has an XLNT reputation. Unless the dies have been abused in some way, I'd forget that as a cause. Even so, it's hard to imagine the dies causing a variation in OAL.

Secondly, the case length has NOTHING to do with the OAL--When you seat a bullet, the press and the die come together, leaving x amount of distance between for the COAL. If you seat a bullet in a short case it will be seated less deeply. If you seat the same bullet in a long case it will be seated more deeply, because there is more case length to envelope more of the bullet. But the OAL will not vary because of that. Neither will the amount of space left behind the bullet for the powder.

Case length does affect crimping, but that is a whole different question.

Now, as to yr problem: Are you seating lead bullets, or ones with lead noses? I ask because IMX, the lead, being a relatively soft metal, gets deformed just a little in ordinary handling, and the extreme end of the bullet will therefore vary just a little from one bullet to the next. The result of this is, that you CANNOT produce an exact and unvarying OAL when seating lead or lead-nosed bullets. My target pistol rounds will vary by as much as a couple of thousandths of an inch from one to the next, in OAL, and I find this to be insignificant in terms of their performance on the range.

If OTOH, you are seating FMJ's, or plastic-nosed bullets, and you are getting a variation in OAL, then the problem lies elsewhere. These materials don't deform like lead. I still wouldn't blame the dies.

BTW, just how much of a variation in OAL are we talking about here? A couple of thousandths of an inch? Or 'way more than that? What measuring tool are you using for OAL, and how precise is it? I'm having a hard time coming up with possible causes.

Good luck on dealing with this problem.

ETA--Just re-read your question, and realized that you may be speaking of the OAL variation from one bullet to the next DIFFERENT bullet you load, not an OAL variation within a batch of the same load & bullet. If this is the case, then the answer will lie in the different shapes of the noses of the different bullets.

Again, good luck; hope you find a solution.

 

[qajaq59]

tips vary much more than do ogives and do not give a correct measurment most of the time.

Boy, will I agree with that............

 

[rcmodel]

I concur that the way you are measuring OAL from the tip of the bullet is your problem.
Bullet length can vary a lot due to the way they are made in a swaging die.
But the ogive is very consistent from one to the next.

You need one of those little contraptions that Jim Kirk posted the picture of to measure from the ogive of the bullet instead of the nose.

You might get creative and find a small shaft coller that fits the bullet ogive close enough to use it for the ogive comparator.

BTW> Brass trim length variation has no bearing whatsoever on OAL measurement.
If one case is longer then the next one, the bullet just seats inside the neck further in the long case at the same OAL from ogive to base as it would be in a short case.

rc

 

[DIM]

Read this article about bullet preparation http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/hand-loading-long-range-2-1.php

and brass preparation: http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/hand-loading-long-range-1.php

 

[ranger335v]

Mono, both Smokey Joe and RC are giving you the correct information.

If your ammo shoots well you are doing fine and need no further changes.

 

[JimKirk]

Let me qualify my statement about bullet ogives varying, US bullets are very consistant as far as ogives go. Being that you state that you are from Africa, I have no idea what kind of bullets you have access to, so that was my reason for that statement.

RCBS dies are good dies, so are Redding dies, based on the info you have given, I do not believe the dies are at fault. I believe that you have a measurement problem. The item mentioned in my above post is about as simple as it gets as far as measuring bullet ogives and OAL.

Please give us more info on the bullets you are using.

Jimmy K

 

[germ]

What are you using for a press? I've noticed that a progressive press will give inconsistent OAL's if the shell plate is less than full. This is obviously not an issue with a single stage or turret.

 

[DIM]

Well I'm in US and got box of Nosler Custom Competition bullets 1000 of them where I found 6 different ogive groups, it doesn't matter where you are, always check them for consistency...

 

[JimKirk]

DIM
I remember you posting about that in another thread.

I have found differences between lot numbers, but I've never ordered large lots either where they have been mixed ogives like you state. Have you found such differences in other brands?

Jimmy K

 

[DIM]

JimKirk, well I got some Hornadys V-Max i checked them recently they came from 250 ct box and I split them in 2 batches since I found 0.002" difference when I measured ogive length. I think they'll be safe that way ;-)
By the way, I'm very disappointed with Nosler products, I just got small box 100 ct of Nosler Custom Competition bullets for my 223 and so far I made 3 batches, I think I will stay away from Nosler until they get their product straight...

 

[Mono]

Thanks guys. My aplologies for not giving you more info on the equipment I use. I use the following.
Lee Anniversary Press
RCBS die set
Nosler Balistic tip 165gr( will be using Siera Gameking 150 gr for the next batch)
I do measure from the ogive.
I get a grouping of about 1'' at 150 yards, but this must be improved as most of the animals we hunt range between 400 and 600 yards.
I would also like to take part in bench rest competitions, but given my current situation it takes about 3 hours to load 50 bullets.

rgds
The Neck

 

[JimKirk]

What gun, Caliper, scope, powder, primers ...other details. I'm assuming a .308 of some sort.
What weight range of game, how tough is that game.

I only shoot deer, hogs and varmints, Nosler BT are fine for varmints, but I've found them not to work very good for hogs and some of the bigger deer. I've had good results with Hornady and Sierra GMK. I have not shot any Noslers lately except some .22 60 grain partitions for some small deer, so far they are accurate enough for the short range at which I've shot. Sounds like Nosler may be letting their qualty slip some.

If you're getting 1" at 150 yds. that theoretically means that you're getting a .67 " group at 100 yds. That also means theoretically you getting a 4.02" at 600 yds. That is pretty dang good for a hunting rifle. If you can't hit game with that accuracy, I'm not sure why.

Jimmy K

 

[USSR]

...US bullets are very consistant as far as ogives go.

Uhh, nope. Sierra's MatchKing bullets will vary by up to 0.010", and that's their best bullet.

Don

 

[Walkalong]

Jacket consistency, along with square uniform bases, is far more important than an ogive that varies a little.

 

[Mono]

Hi JimKirk
I've got a Marlin XL7 30-06 with a NcStar Mark 3 scope. Powder S365(only brand available in Namibia is Somchem), which is the equivalent of IMR4350 and H205. Primers- PMP large rifle magnum primers. PMP cases, but I am gonna import so Nosler cases from South Africa. The animals we hunt range from 60 pounds( spring buck) to 1000 pounds(Eland) I am not saying that I am not hitting my targets, my problem comes in that it take me ages to load bullets, because I have to check each and every bullet to see if it the same length as the previous bullet. And i would like it if all my bullets are the same length as this will help my accuracy even more. By the way, what do you gents think about the NcStar Mark 3 Scope range.

rgds
The Neck

 

[fguffey]

There are not many seater dies I do not have going back 50 years, I have even made seater adapters that do not require a die, when I have problems with seating a bullet with consistent length I remove the seater plug and check the fit, some are designed to seat round nose bullets others are designed to seat wad-cutters, most of my dies are RCBS and for that reason I have the seater plug assortment from RCBS, I have found one seater plug does not fit everything.

F. Guffey

 

[JimKirk]

With that Rifle and setup... .67" is pretty darn good for a hunting rifle.

If I were hitting like you say, then I would say you are on a witch hunt to find much better accuracy than what you're getting.

Keep experimenting with loads, seating distance to the lands, you may find a mix that will bring that group down slightly. I'd then look at the stock and barrel fit in the stock and maybe the trigger pull.

I don't own a NcStar, but two of my friends have one each, after they each swapped out a few each, they got one that would hold zero. They are a China product and like lots of products from there, you may get a good one, you may not. But if it is working for you, which it appears to be doing well, then I'm happy for you.

For you other guys with the varying ogives, I guess that I have been pretty darn lucky to have found so little variance, luck happens, so does the other stuff. As long as they shoot good, that is all I care about. I think sometimes we all get caught up in the details and miss the big picture... does it shoot.

Jimmy K