Second Amendment Foundation

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My exact words: "The Second Amendment Foundation is an important resource for conducting second amendment research, but I must qualify my endorsement."

Maniacal? :confused:

Look, we're all on the same side here, so apologies accepted, Jerry.



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Onward through the fog......
 
It's been said here that "a lie is a lie..." .
The difference between an error and a lie is intent. So why attribute this to dishonesty? There is no "be all and end all" organization for RKBA nor should there be. No person or group of people is perfect and most of them are open to suggestions (certainly SAF is).
Don't worry about "petition"ing SAF to fix a quote. EMAIL them. Every page at www.saf.org (a -huge- site) has a webmaster mailto on it. Go there and click or email [email protected]. It's simple, it's easy and it's pretty much standard on the World Wide Web.
There have been differing opinions here about the intent of the original quote. I'll take that as evidence of how easy a mistake would be to make here. Just my .02 boyd425
 
The SAF's website is gargantuan. The sheet volume of information, including entire scholarly journals, can be overwhelming. That someone was able to find a single -- arguably -- misinterpreted quote is more of a testament to their overall accuracy than anything else.

I would encourage anyone who is following this discussion to visit the SAF's main quote page. It is pretty extensive. Most of the quotes are given in their entirety, with some of them being shortened with a clearly indicated ... The quotes themselves are broken down into different categories, for pro-RKBA, anti-RKBA, bogus quotes, etc... SAF even gives tips on where to find original documents with the quotes in them, and how to search for them so that their quotes are verifiable. To me, this shows a clear intent to get things right, and to be useful. It is far from a propaganda page, and clearly gives quotes from all sides of the issue. As anyone who has conducted scholarly research knows, it is always a good idea to independently verify any information, using primary sources. SAF actually gives tips on many of their quotes on where to go about finding these primary sources.

To pick one thing out of such a huge site -- from a legal foundation specializing in lawsuits -- and say that it calls the organization's integrity into doubt is a pretty dodgy premise. Has anyone who has found fault with any of these quotes contacted the SAF and let them know? Just given the extent of the website, I am not in the least surprised that someone was able to find a single, again arguable, mistake.

Finally, speaking of integrity -- which was mentioned in an earlier post -- I would encourage anyone who is interested to visit the entire page. Like I said earlier, it is huge, whith a ton of useful information. As a gun rights community, we should be working together, and letting groups know if they make a mistake. I would imagine that as a foundation specializing in lawsuits that the constant review and maintenance of their website is not their highest priority. Actually, I bet their members would be upset if they traded in their lawyers for techies. We need to help them,and groups like them, rather than just picking them apart.

We already are losing many of our rights. We cannot afford the luxury of sitting back and criticising those that are working for us over petty things like a single quote in a a website of literally thousands of pages. Rather, as an RKBA community, we should be actively helping out, and offering constructive suggestions.
 
I sent them an e-mail last night and heard from a representative this afternoon, it may be the gentleman here named "Liberty." I applaud any efforts to defend our gun rights and as a resident of Massachusetts, I'm not convinced the NRA is doing it -- for me at least. I don't feel their influence here in my state so maybe they have more pull down South? I'd put my money behind the SAF; I'm also actively trying to change my MBNA college card to the Second Amendment Foundation. :cool:
 
There are a lot of ogranizations doing different types of work for our RKBA. The NRA does a lot of lobbying (and training) and it does not do all of that in a manner that pleases everyone. GOA is truly a "balls to the wall" (as others have said) scrapper for RKBA but they do not do all of their work in a manner that pleases everyone. And SAF, being an educational foundation doesn't do everything and doesn't do everything that it does do in a way that will please everyone.
It's a little like saying the sky is blue.
IMNSDHO there are no "bad" RKBA organizations. A lot of them do things I don't like some times. Some of them even do that enough that I stop reading their junk mail ; ) but -none- of them are as bad as the Brady Campaign. I see a tremendous number of folks in our movement who don't seem to keep perspective on this. People will go on about some percieved error or even perfidy on (picking a name at random) Wayne LaPierres part and totally lose sight of the fact that we have opponents who are avowed enemy of our right to keep and bear arms. Some people don't like LaPierres PR firm (and maybe that could be a topic for constructive criticism) but it ain't like the drum beating Pols at Chuckie Schumers office or the anti gun zealots at Legal Community Against Violence.
Pro RKBA orgs can work for us just like the cereal aisle at your local grocers works for General Mills. You don't have one cereal there. It isn't just rice puffs. It's an aisle of different flavors, different marketing machines, different takes on how to "sell" the idea of... freedom. We don't need just JPFO or just SAF we need all of them. We each need to support as many as we can and help them with constructive (-constructive-) criticism too. All IMO.
 
I just joined the SAF today. There website was giving me an error when I tried to join so I called and gave them the money over the phone.

I figured I may be needing some assistance from them so time to buck up.
 
I plan to join once I get working. Right now, no job, no money. Hope it changes soon and when it does -- I intend to show my support. There's not enough defenders of the second amendment right in my opinion.;)
 
Bfason is correct in that the reading of the quote in its original structure can lead to confusion in modern day readers. With grammatical styles being significantly different today than they were in the 1700's, often quotes can be misinterpreted, or just plain not understood. This appears to be one of those circumstances. On my first reading of Adam's entire quote, I was a little confused. On subsequent readings of the quote, I got the impression, much like Bfason, that John Adams was decrying the use of guns at individual discretion. Then, reviewing it more, and taking out unecessary portions of the quote for our purpose, I think that the shortened quote is being intellectually honest.

I looked over the web to try to locate a primary source, and save myself a trip to the library. About 90% of the quotations I ran across were in the same form as the SAF quote. I think this is mainly because the intitial quote is pretty convoluted, and does not lend itself to a quick reading. As a result, as is common practice, people have shortened it down -- while maintaining its meaning -- into an easily understandable quote.

The entire quote states that the use of arms, at individual discretion, except for in private self-defense, would destroy the constitution. Furthermore, the Militia should be created by laws, governed by laws, etc... In other words, we don't want paramilitary groups running around who answer to no laws. John Adams would have disapproved of the Fedayeen, is my reading of this.

So, one way to read that is that guns are bad, except when used for private self defense, or in a militia. Or, that guns are good for self defense, and legal militia's, but should not be used willy-nilly by anyone who has a problem with their neighbor.

There are only so many uses for guns. Self defense is one, hunting is another, citizen militia's are another, and crime is a pretty common one. Adams addresses the use of guns, then puts in the caveat that a legal militia was okay, and that self defense was okay. I doubt Mr. Adams was anti-hunting, thus leaving the only potential gun use -- for criminal activities -- that Adams did not specifically address, appears to be the one he was decrying.

Finally, the way the quote was originally given would be like me saying "you must not play computer games between 5:00 am and 4:00 pm." A reasonable interpretation of that quote would be that I could play computer games between 4:01 pm and 4:59 am. The common use of that Adams quote is similarly reasoned. He says that guns can be used for self defense and legal militia's, but not for other individual discretionary reasons. Or, as the quote says, "...arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, EXCEPT IN PRIVATE SELF-DEFENSE (emphasis added)...is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man..." Or, as the common interpretation say, Adams thought that guns can be used in self-defense.

I do agree with Bfason when he writes that SAF should not be the end-all be-all for Second Amendment debates. Indeed, no one organization can be. And, this is not meant as an attack on anyone's reasoning. I am curious if anyone's interpretation of this quote, and it's common shortening, is the same as mine. Please let me know.
 
but not for other individual discretionary reasons

I read that as people have to obey the law and not go around using their guns whatever way they fealt(criminal uses). I still stand by SAF's way of quoting it. That's the simplest way of reading it, imo.
 
Why does my browser shut down whenever I try to go to SAF.ORG???

what am I missing here guys... computer major and I have no clue :banghead:
 
Browser shutting down?!?

Tag,

Have you been hacked?

Just went to the SAF.ORG site, no problem using IE 6.0.2800.1106, Opera 6.04 and Netscape Navigator(forgot which release).
 
hy does my browser shut down whenever I try to go to SAF.ORG???

This is frequently a symptom of accessing a current site with older browsers. What browser and what version of that browser are you using? I can readily access www.saf.org with my Netscape 7.01 (Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 (NSCD7.01) ) every time I connect.

If you have a newer browser and still cannot connect you might check for invasion as has been mentioned or even a mismatched (older) version of the java runtime system. I highly recommend Netscape's java over Microsoft's java as the latter is fundamentally non-standard.
 
I have a friend from law school that used to work for SAF. I think they are a good group, worth supporting.

That said, I think that ANY quote, especially those found on the web, should be looked in to. They are OFTEN taken out of context, or at least presented in a manner that skews the original "flavor." Quotes by themselves, as an aside, aren't worth diddly squat. I can find a quote from a reputable, respected source to support just about any argument I want. What matters is the logic and foundation of the argument, not what some dead white guy (or living ethnic minority woman, or someone in between) said about it in a sound-bite.

Jerry, deep breaths - you need to watch the blood pressure.

Oh, and as to SAF being a "starting point" and not the "be all, end all" - I don't know of any pro-second amendment group that fits that bill. That's why I support the NRA, GOA, SAF, and JPFO (you want a "balls-out" pro gun group, look into Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership, www.jpfo.org - it's not just for Jews.)
 
Liberty,

I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on tv, but I do agree with your interpretation. And you are right, the original is confusing to the modern reader; only if you are willing to really puzzle over it can you decide what Adams is really saying.

I have been an SAF member for a number of years, but I also believe that no one organization can do it all.
 
Gotta say, checked out the Jewish site for the preservation of firearm rights -- what a page... They've got a poster, available in a shirt, and bumper sticker that is their best selling item which asks: All those in favor of gun control raise your right hand. The picuture is Adolph Hitler saluting to the crowds. I was shocked!:what: Interesting site though, I'm not Jewish but will definately check them out more. Thanks to Idaho for the link.:D
 
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