See it, hear it, feel it: Marines train with the AK-47 assault rifle

[Pinned&Recessed]

(slight thread hijack)

My AK tale of woe, which I think I caused:

My AK is an Arsenal USA SSR-85C built with all Hungarian parts on a Hungarian FEG receiver. Of course, it has the requisite US-made parts, some very smooth Arsenal FCG and PG.

Anyway, I bought it used, but still in good shape. It hadn't been cleaned in a while. I took it to a buddy's land and ripped off 500 rounds of polymer Wolf without a hiccup. It was so fun and I loved it. Bump-fired, slow fire, everything. The rifle just kept running. I fired it so much, I even got some scorching on the front handguards.

I take the gun home and proceed to put a Drill-Sergeant-Inspection level of clean on it. I KNOW, it's an AK, but for at least ONCE in it's life, I wanted it to be spotless. I cleaned it so well, you could eat or perform surgery off it. I even pulled the gas tube and cleaned the carbon out with a 20 Gauge bore brush and mop.

While I was in there, I "customized" the bolt carrier. The bolt carrier had the typical black finish on it, but the finish was worn and looked bad. I preferred the "two-tone" look of earlier AKs and followed some directions I found online to strip the finish off the carrier and polish it to a high shine. It looked beautiful. It absolutely sparkled.

I then lubed the bolt wear surfaces, locking lugs and carrier rails.

The next time I went to shoot, I was shooting that Uly ammo that comes in the big green "Sardine Can".

The gun jammed every other shot. I was getting bolt-over-round failures where it seemed the carrier was moving too fast and the round wasn't pushed up into position in time. The bolt was hitting the cartridge halfway up the case, pushing it up and jamming it halfway into the chamber. The only way to clear it was to pull the bolt back, drop the mag and let the round fall out of the gun.

This happened on multiple mags and the most rounds I was able to get off at a time was two in a row.

The gun had a rubber buffer on the recoil spring and I removed that and it seemed to help, but it still jammed constantly.

Switch back to Wolf and I've had less problems. But people run the Uly ammo with NO PROBLEM!!!! Why does my rifle have to be different? An AK should run on ammo that's loaded with sand instead of gunpowder, ansd should run regardless of being clean, dirty, lubed or dry.

I think my problems were a comination of the rifle being too clean, lubed up, with a polished bolt carrier and different ammo. Thoughts, advice?

Please tell me it's not my rifle. This has REALLY soured me to the "AK Experience" and the ONLY reason I keep it at this point is because me owning an EEEEVIL AK-47 somehow pisses Dianne Feinstein off.

 

[MudPuppy]

I "heard" about an ak that had the action rusted/frozen shut and a trooper stood it on the buttstock and stomped on the charging handle to break it loose, then picked it up and fired it. Hows that for safe??

I had a lot of issues with my service M16, but no problems with my current civvie ar-15--but I keep it very clean am very careful with it. My AK gets tossed in the back of the truck.

All that aside, it is very important to know your enemy--this training should be part of every infantry soldiers early training.

 

[RevDisk]

I take the gun home and proceed to put a Drill-Sergeant-Inspection level of clean on it. I KNOW, it's an AK, but for at least ONCE in it's life, I wanted it to be spotless. I cleaned it so well, you could eat or perform surgery off it. I even pulled the gas tube and cleaned the carbon out with a 20 Gauge bore brush and mop.

While I was in there, I "customized" the bolt carrier. The bolt carrier had the typical black finish on it, but the finish was worn and looked bad. I preferred the "two-tone" look of earlier AKs and followed some directions I found online to strip the finish off the carrier and polish it to a high shine. It looked beautiful. It absolutely sparkled.

Uh, you really shouldn't have done that. If the rifle was working fine with no jams, you tinker with the insides, and then the rifle starts malfunctioning... I'm not a psychic, but I'm willing to bet it was caused by something you did while "customizing" the bolt carrier. Try not cleaning the rifle for a bit and remove all the lube you used. If you have a carbon soaked rag you used for cleaning the rifle, wipe down the parts with it. I have no idea why, but I swear the AK is happier with carbon build up than it is 'surgical clean'.

I "heard" about an ak that had the action rusted/frozen shut and a trooper stood it on the buttstock and stomped on the charging handle to break it loose, then picked it up and fired it. Hows that for safe??

I've seen it done by Finnish soldiers. Something about ice building up in the receiver during arctic conditions. Their way of clearing it is to jump kick the charging handle with their entire body weight. Dang...

Norinco, China. Best trigger I've ever felt in an AK, but that doesn't make up for the sub-par accuracy.

Justin, I'd love to see that rifle. The only AK's I've seen with that much jammings was due to massive amounts of rust and corrosion, probably due to being buried for nearly decade or so. If your rifle is in decent condition, I'd really love to learn how it's actually having problems.

 

[Pinned&Recessed]

Uh, you really shouldn't have done that. If the rifle was working fine with no jams, you tinker with the insides, and then the rifle starts malfunctioning... I'm not a psychic, but I'm willing to bet it was caused by something you did while "customizing" the bolt carrier. Try not cleaning the rifle for a bit and remove all the lube you used. If you have a carbon soaked rag you used for cleaning the rifle, wipe down the parts with it. I have no idea why, but I swear the AK is happier with carbon build up than it is 'surgical clean'.

I haven't cleaned it in a while and I am hoping the build-up of nastyness will help.

As far as the carrier, all I did was put it "in the white" and polish the part you see. I never messed with the bearing surfaces for the bolt or carrier rails. The original AK-47s came with unfinished bolt carriers "in the white", so that should not be an issue.

I think being clean and lubed made it cycle probably TOO fast and it had issues.

 

[entropy]

I just watched the Military Channels comparison of the AK and M16, and they showed a stop-action film of an AK fired full auto. The barrel was actually bending down during firing!

I think being clean and lubed made it cycle probably TOO fast and it had issues.

I don't think so. you somehow messed up some bearing surfaces in there somewhere. I agree with RevDisk, the AK likes a little carbon buildup.

 

[earthworm]

Donno much about Ak's but being at least familiar with the enemy's weaponry
sounds like a good idea to me.

 

[brian roberts]

AKs....

Hey P&R, you might try putting a good quality mag. spring in the mag. & trying it on the range, that may cure "that" problem. you might try W.C.Wolff Co. for the springs.

as for the trooper standing on the AK, yes, there was a test w/the H&K(.30); the AK; the M-16. they were all fired 'til they were "nicely warm" then allowed to freeze in water, outside, overnight. the M-16, you couldn't stomp on, so it never was returned to firing order. the H&K, when the op rod was stomped on, the handle snapped off. only the AK could be "stomped on" & bashed about, til the ice was removed(couldn't use tools, only hands & shoes) & she'd come up firing. makes you think about more than deserts.....

 

[Drizzt]

entropy, I think that's the same one I just saw the other day. One of the best points they brought up was that the M-16 was designed as a rifle, and the AK was designed as being more of a machine gun (using the order of safe-select-full auto), which also tends to govern how they are used, and how accurate they are.

Now, I don't say that to imply a preference between the two, but I really feel that we are comparing two dissimilar items.

 

[Pinned&Recessed]

the M-16, you couldn't stomp on, so it never was returned to firing order. the H&K, when the op rod was stomped on, the handle snapped off

Borrow a trick from American GIs in Korea and wizz on it to defrost it.

you somehow messed up some bearing surfaces in there somewhere.

Nope. Didn't go near them. Cosmetic only.

I am probably going to try new mag springs and see if that helps. The mags were kinda tired.

 

[RevDisk]

I just watched the Military Channels comparison of the AK and M16, and they showed a stop-action film of an AK fired full auto. The barrel was actually bending down during firing!

I've seen it with an M60. I uh, swear it wasn't me behind it. I'd never fire until a barrel started glowing red. Really. What? Stop looking at me like that!

Nope. Didn't go near them. Cosmetic only.

Hmm. Mind starting a thread in Rifles? I'm actually rather interested. When people break an AK, they usually have to put some work into it. I'm rather curious.

 

[Khaotic]

Donno much about Ak's but being at least familiar with the enemy's weaponry
sounds like a good idea to me.

Both me and Revdisk, and some other troops, got a similar idea not long ago, and some of the command staff thought this would be a better use of some soldiers time than cooling their heels and slacking off... soooo...

They did something like that out in the big K, and it worked out well not only from a training point of view, but also from a diplomatic one - of course, if some allied soldier gives you a pitying look and pats you comfortingly, know that it's because they fired the M-4.

As for snatching up an enemy rifle in the heat of combat - bad, bad idea.

First off, you won't have any ammo for it but what's in the magazine at the time, unless you strip it from the poor sodder who was holding it a few minutes ago.. which has it's own dangers.

Second, the AK makes a really distinctive sound, which'll draw the attention of every GI in the vicinity, some one whom may not pause for proper target identification, etc etc.

Now, if you're COMPLETELY out of ammo or have a really bad jam and time is critical, you're being overrun, etc - it'd be understandable, but as a general rule it's a bad, bad idea.

For mine own, I'd prefer we were issued sidearms for those eventualities, because NO rifle is 100% effective, 100% of the time.

I've seen it with an M60. I uh, swear it wasn't me behind it. I'd never fire until a barrel started glowing red. Really. What? Stop looking at me like that!

Perhaps you'd care to explain to me, then, WHY everyone in your unit grabs dirt when you rack the charging handle, hmmm?

Or why your first purchase on return was a heavy oven mitt ?

Admittedly tho, it doesn't take very much to meltdown an M60 barrel, the timing, trigger control and forebearance (as in wait for it to cool off, willya!) required isn't really compatible with most troops battlefield use of it - prolly why we replaced it.

I loved mine tho - punched ooogly holes in things.

-R

 

[Pinned&Recessed]

I'm actually rather interested. When people break an AK, they usually have to put some work into it. I'm rather curious.

It's not "broken" and as of right now has shot nearly a thousand rounds and has been through about 300 rounds error free.

Basically, all I did was polish the right side of the bolt carrier that is visible in the ejection port. Didn't polish the rails, didn't polish the off-side, didn't polish any other part of the carrier. Didn't touch the FCG or anything else.

I think it was more related to it's cleanliness level as it's run better the dirtier it's gotten. I think the next time I clean, I'll just scrub the barrel and let the action stay gross.

 

[RevDisk]

Both me and Revdisk, and some other troops, got a similar idea not long ago, and some of the command staff thought this would be a better use of some soldiers time than cooling their heels and slacking off... soooo...

They did something like that out in the big K, and it worked out well not only from a training point of view, but also from a diplomatic one - of course, if some allied soldier gives you a pitying look and pats you comfortingly, know that it's because they fired the M-4.

Yea. I managed to help rig a bunch of joint weapons training. Basically, every country in Europe and even some that weren't European. Germans, Swiss, English, Irish, Swedish, Fins, Italians, etc etc. We had the support of our chain of command, but they weren't really involved except when they stopped by to show the flag. So to speak. Boy did I get nasty looks from the Task Force sergeant major for wearing more foreign uniform components than American.

The positive aspects were numerous. Cross training on basically every small arms weapons system used in the world. Lots of target practice. I fired more rounds off downrange in one week than most soldiers do in their entire career. We literally covered entire ranges with expended brass. More often than not, ankle deep near the firing positions.

One weird thing I noticed. Some MG's I haven't fired since, I couldn't explain how to hot swap barrels. But I could do it by instinct without thought. Muscle memory, I suppose.

Diplomacy, of course. I know a lot of folks here sneer at the Europeans. But I learned a lot of tactics and tricks from foreign military doctrine that doesn't exist here in the mainstream US Army. Learning how to operate fire teams in a mixed military atmosphere was rather eye opening. Yea, most foreign Armies (with the notable exception of the Brits) pitied our M16/M4.

I really do think all soldiers should be cross trained in numerous foreign weapon systems. ESPECIALLY the AK47 family. Of course, I also think they should get more range time with the M16/M4.

Khaotic is very correct that it's a bad idea to grab a foreign weapon in combat except under specific conditions. It could be rigged to kill the operator, other US soldiers might zap ya, lack of logistical support, etc etc.

Perhaps you'd care to explain to me, then, WHY everyone in your unit grabs dirt when you rack the charging handle, hmmm?

Perhaps because I'm the only person that's qual'd expert in everything 40mm and below? Or because they all think I'm insane. Either or.

Admittedly tho, it doesn't take very much to meltdown an M60 barrel, the timing, trigger control and forebearance (as in wait for it to cool off, willya!) required isn't really compatible with most troops battlefield use of it - prolly why we replaced it.

I was just expending left over ammo. I had like, two hours to cook off nearly 10,000 rounds. I was switching between a couple 60's. Apparently, I should have used more 60's than I was. Oh well. All I did was fry the barrels, no real damage to the rest of the weapon.

The M240 is a better weapon. It's essentially a MAG-58, which is a superior weapon in nearly all respects to the M60. My understanding is that the MAG-58 is essentially a BAR converted to belt fed. John Browning is still inspiring superior firearms even long after his death.