seeking advice on owning my first handgun

[Zen21Tao]

I actually find that, for myself at least, the difference in cost between between 9mm, 40 S&W and .45ACP is made up for by the time it takes to reload with a lower magazine capacity.

For example, with my .45s, I am usually loading up 5 to 7 round mags if I have my CCW .45s with me or 7 to 10 round mags if I have my full-size .45s. Meanwhile, my 9mm buddies are shooting 10 to 15 round mags (and some even have the 33 round mags). And, because they have the greater magazine capacity they are firing much quicker, often in double or triple taps. By the time our 45 minutes to an hour is up, they have fired much more of their cheap 9mm ammo than I have of my more expensive .45ACP ammo.

 

[Old Dog]

Harkening back to the OP's original post:

It's been awhile, but the biggest I've ever fired was a Desert Eagle .410...

?

I remember the .41 AE (IMI/Jericho back in the early '90s) but I was unaware of a Deagle in the .410 chambering ...

At any rate, if price was no object, and I wasn't hung up on an autoloader, the S&W 627 .357 8-shooter with those excellent Ahrends finger-groove cocobolo stocks would be cool ... Especially if one could locate a pre-lock version ...

 

[gonepostal42]

i think it was a desert eagle .410...although that was in the days before i quit drinking, so i can't be positive. after reading all the replies, i realize just how uninformed i am...so i know i've got some work to do. Although, for maximum intimidation factor, i was at a pawn shop the other day and I saw a S&W .500 Magnum revolver with about a 9 or 10 inch barrel...not exactly concealable, but who cares? a few posts back, someone mentioned the Desert Eagle .50...I remeber hearing that it was unreliable, though...any thoughts/advice on that one?

 

[Hauptmann]

gonepostal42,

There's many reasons why you only see magnum calibers used by action heros in the movies. Once you've been in the service, or worked as an LEO you can understand this.

1) Weapon weight: A Desert Eagle weighs in at over 72oz, that is instanely heavy for a pistol to be used as anything other than a range toy or hunting pistol. You have to be comfortable, mobile, and agile in the protection profession. You want something that weighs in at 30-40oz for a duty weapon.
2) Muzzle Flash: Every pistol has a degree of muzzle flash that you will see in low light. The more powerful the cartridge, the greater the flash. Anything over a .45acp will have a large muzzle flash and WILL blind you temporarily after the first shot. Unless you took care of business with that first shot, you are now a blind man for several seconds which can get you killed.
3) Recoil: When the SHTF and you are fighting for your life, your heart rate goes from 70bpm to over 200bpm. When that happens you get tunnel vision, you cannot operate the control levers on your pistol adequately, and all you have left is gross motor skills which are the most basic of movements relying on muscle memory. Your aim will be way off and the faster your can recover after each shot gives you a better chance of hitting the bad guy which may also not be standing still.
4) Over penetration: If you don't mind being sued and going to prison, use a heavy magnum caliber that will "shoot through schools" and will hit people behind your target. You will be asked as to why you didn't use a common service caliber that didn't go through several people.

The recommended calibers for police, contractor, or military service are 9mm, .40S&W, .357sig, .45gap, or .45acp. If you are fascinated with large calibers, go with the .45acp. As far as trying to scare somebody by pointing or brandishing your pistol.....you will have to file a report to the police for the incident and your hiring agency(private or govt) will likely hold an investigation as to why you pull your weapon out of the holster in a threatening manner.

Armed professions whether they be private, state, govt, or military are highly restrictive in their regulations for weapons deployment and you will be investigated if you do so. If you were in the right according to agency policy, you will be fine. If not, expect your agency/employer to turn against you. Your tactical control over a hostile situation far outweighs any gun or caliber you may be using. Your brain, and your ability to effectively communicate with the aggressor always wins out over your equipment.

 

[Lonestar49]

...

IMHO, first time gun to CCW, and be a paid body guard, after taking all the appropriate, required, courses, and pass the tests, I would steer you towards either a Sig P220 full size, or the Sig P220 Carry, both 45's.

Reasons: DA/SA, allows you to carry full magazine (whatever amount your State allows) frame mounted decocker-only, which allows you to maintain a good 2-hand grip while decocking the hammer/action out of SA mode, back into DA mode.

Field stripping ie disassemble, inspect, clean, and reassemble of the Sigs are about as EASY and FAST as it gets, bar none.

Myself, and A LOT of other owners of the P220 series 45's can attest to 1000's of rounds, both FMJ and JHP's without any failures of ANY kind.

One of the most accurate pistols NIB, to the first range visit, and either gun, having an Aluminum frame, make for far easier CCW time and weight, along with the ease of point to aim, and the balance of that act. And they all come with Sig Night Sights, nice feature.

But, as mentioned a 100 times, it's in "your hands" as too which gun, make, and model, fits the mold of your hand/s and arm/s as though "part of them."

The only other question may be; what type of round-count you feel most comfy with? As mentioned, Glocks for example, hold 15 rounds with double-stack magazines, compared to Sigs single stack mags.


LS

 

[gonepostal42]

thanks again...the advice from everyone here has been very insightful and appreciated. from the resesarch i've done and the ones i've held, i'll probably end up with a Glock, a Colt, or a Sig...and by all reckoning, i should never have to use it...and i'll certainly carry pepper spray, tazer, tactical baton, etc. as a first line of defense. After all, we don't want to kill my protectee's ex--we still want him to pay child support

 

[frag316]

I get this question a lot. I'm new on the board, so please forgive me if I'm a little blunt.

The bottom line is that you have to pick a pistol that's comfortable for you to use. If you've never shot a pistol, then I'd suggest that you find someone (or several someones) and try out theirs. I own several handguns (which isn't a sign that I should have taken them for test drives, I just like to shoot a lot), so I generally get asked by folks to try them out.

Me? I'm a big fan of the .45 ACP. No, it's not the Holy Grail of cartridges, it's just the one I picked. I know lots of people who carry 9mm, .38 Spcl, .40 S&W, .357 Mag, etc.

When I get asked to walk someone thru their first pistol purchase, I ask a few basic questions--How much have you shot before this point? How much do you plan to practice? How much can you REALISTICALLY practice? Revolver or autoloader? Is magazine capacity important to you? How big are your hands? What's your normal mode of dress? Where are you planning on being when you're carrying?

Then I take them window shopping. Find a store with a good selection and try them out in the store. How do they feel? Can you reach the slide release? Can you reach the trigger consistently and comfortably? Does the mag release work well for you? When you bring it up, does it point naturally? Do you like the sights or will you need something else (especially important for those whose vision is compromised in some way)?

After they've found something (hopefully SEVERAL somethings) they like, I take them to the range (they pay for the ammo). If I have it, I let them shoot it. If not, I make arrangements with a friend who does to borrow it or ask them to come along (yes, I tell them that their guns are going to be shot by a relative novice). Shoot at targets as close as 7 yards and as far away as 20 yards (if they're going to get into competition at some point, more than 20 yards may come into play, but I usually keep it simple at first).

The important part of the range test is really whether they can actuate the pistol in field conditions AND whether it's comfortable enough to shoot with FACTORY ammo (they probably won't be reloaders at this point in their lives!) to practice with on a regular basis.

With any handgun, there are compromises and comfort of shooting is one of those things you have to factor in. Magnums will up the flinch factor, even in a combat environment!

That's my $.02.

Frag 3:16--Fear not the night, fear what HUNTS at night.
Frag 24:7--Those who live by the sword get shot by those of us who don't.

 

[gonepostal42]

when you say "flinch factor" do you mean hesitation? and becaused i'm usually the type to err on the side of caution--better have it and not need it--what are your thoughts on the good old Ditry Harry .44 magnum? sidebar--to a novice like me, it would seem there isn't much difference between a .44 and a .45...is there?

 

[Hauptmann]

The average .44magnum shoots a 240gr bullet at around 1400fps. The average .45acp shoots a 230gr bullet at 880fps with standard loads, and 980fps with high pressure loads. The energy recoil and muzzle flash of the .44mag is way above that of the .45acp. The .44mag will shoot through your suspect and hit who ever or what ever is behind him. With modern defense loads, the .45acp will make a large hole in the bad guy and will most of the time not penetrate all the way through him.

No doubt, the .44mag has more killing power, but it comes with a heafty price. You will have a limited magazine capacity, heavy recoil, large muzzle flash, overpenetration, a very heavy pistol, and poor ergonomics. All the hallmarks of what you DON'T want in a service pistol. Also, unless you are using a revolver, the .44mag cartridge is a rimmed cartridge which isn't as reliable in an auto pistol like the Desert Eagle.

In a service pistol, you want low recoil, good ergonomics(feels good in the hand), large magazine capacity, low muzzle flash, low pistol and ammunition weight, and perfect reliabilty. Pick a standarized service pistol in .45acp. Sig P220, H&K USP .45acp, Glock 21, Springfield XD .45acp, or Kimber 1911. Trust the professionals, not the movies.

 

[Black Adder LXX]

gonepostal42:

I just read this in another thread here by one of the mods and thought it might help you, too...

Originally posted by Justin:

Here's the basic test I've always used:
Pick the pistol up and get a good grip on it. Go to low ready.
Close your eyes.
With your eyes closed, bring the pistol up as if you were aiming it at a target.
Open your eyes and see if the sights are aligned.

Do this two or three times.

If the sights aren't aligned, or close to aligned, then try a different pistol.

 

[Hauptmann]

gonepostal42:

I just read this in another thread here by one of the mods and thought it might help you, too...

Originally posted by Justin:

Quote:
Here's the basic test I've always used:
Pick the pistol up and get a good grip on it. Go to low ready.
Close your eyes.
With your eyes closed, bring the pistol up as if you were aiming it at a target.
Open your eyes and see if the sights are aligned.

Do this two or three times.

If the sights aren't aligned, or close to aligned, then try a different pistol.

Yes and no. If you don't train very much, then picking a pistol that feels good to your untrained body is a good thing. However, you can train with any pistol design and coordinate your muscle memory so that it becomes more and more natural feeling as you train. Even the most awkward of pistol designs can feel comfortable and natural in your hand if you do repetative training. Repetition is the mother of skill.

Your first priority is always to pick the most reliable weapon system that you can find. If it does not properly function, then it doesn't matter how natural it feels, how accurate it is, how powerful it is, because it will be nothing more than a well machined club.

 

[Jack A. Sol]

if you want big and fear then a pistol gripped shot gun is the way to go!!
If you are not too stuck on bravado then you may condiser a fullsized 9mm. modern projectiles like the DPX, Gold Dot and Golden Saber all perform equally as well in penetration as a .45 but you get many more rounds into the magazine which is NOT a small thing to dismiss.
if you must have a 45, then consider an H&K USP fullsize. it should fit you nicely and carries enough lead to start a green peace demonstration. skip the single stack 45's in favor of the hi caps.
If you really want a single stack then the 50 GI is about as frightening and effective as you can get in a 1911.

for sheer handgun perfection the glock 10mm is almost perfect. the 10mm cartridge is awesome in it's full power iteration and the undisputed champion of factory cartridges

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=45

 

[Zen21Tao]

Yes and no. If you don't train very much, then picking a pistol that feels good to your untrained body is a good thing. However, you can train with any pistol design and coordinate your muscle memory so that it becomes more and more natural feeling as you train. Even the most awkward of pistol designs can feel comfortable and natural in your hand if you do repetative training. Repetition is the mother of skill.

This is more true when you only have one gun or multiple similar guns. However, when you very different guns and train often, you muscle memory can actually make its harder to go from one platform to another. I have a friend that has owned and trained with Glocks so much that he has become accustomed to their bore axis and extremely slanted grip angel. He also loves 1911s and S&W M&Ps now, but having trained so much with his Glocks, he finds it very hard to initially transition between shooting his 1911, Glock, and M&P.

 

[Hauptmann]

This is more true when you only have one gun or multiple similar guns. However, when you very different guns and train often, you muscle memory can actually make its harder to go from one platform to another. I have a friend that has owned and trained with Glocks so much that he has become accustomed to their bore axis and extremely slanted grip angel. He also loves 1911s and S&W M&Ps now, but having trained so much with his Glocks, he finds it very hard to initially transition between shooting his 1911, Glock, and M&P.

This is precisely why the old saying rings true, "Fear the man who has only one gun, he will know how to use it.". The best pistol shooters in the world usually have only one make and model of firearm that they use. Not because it is the best design, but because it maximizes their training effectiveness. Shooting many different designs will play havoc with your muscle memory and impede your training effectiveness.

There comes a point when you have to decide if you want to collect pistols, or be the best gun fighter you can be. I own many different pistols, but I have adjusted my grip holds and operation of a pistol to a univeral method. I only use a pistol with a push button magazine release, my grip hold is a low rider in which I can use in all existing pistol models, and I don't use any other controls during operation. In the case of a DA/SA with decocker, decocking is an administrative move to be used after the threat is over. Slide release on a fresh mag is done by grasping the rear of the open slide with the right or left hand in a gross motor skill movement to chamber a round. Thumb side of the fist towards the chest. You need nothing else in combat other that using simple large muscle movements, tactical thinking, and acting as quickly as you can. Also be prepared to deal with malfuctions and the proceedures of dealing with each case. For instance dealing with a malfunction associated with a damaged extractor is a much different proceedure than dealing with a magazine not seated properly.

 

[karz10]

As mentioned and you acknowledged, training and practice are key

Aside from professional training, and paper practice, maybe also consider a SD oriented competitive shooting practice, like IDPA. I shoot IDPA http://www.idpa.com and have done so since buying my first handgun this year. In a few months I've gotten pretty good and drawing from concealment and placing shots well on multiple targets in different scenarios.

That's what I like about IDPA, it gives you an opportunity to tackle different scenarios, drawing from concealment, retreat shooting, charge shooting, lateral move shooting, standing, sitting, kneeling, shooting from cover, avoiding innocent non-threat targets while still hitting the threat targets, body shots, head shots, etc.

Also, unlike some other competitive shooting sports, IDPA is typically shot w/ more or less stock guns, regular steel sights, no fancy mods, which is what you'll be carrying, know what I mean...

It is a competitive 'game' and not always 'real-word' but definitely would give you a chance to get some time w/ your pistol once you purchase it, and certainly a good way to put to use your learned skills and go beyond punching holes in paper at the typical range.

Still get the pro training and all that, but I'd recommend checking out something like IDPA, it's a lot of fun, and will tell you where you're at competency wise, especially when you see some of the better shooters, you'll know how far you have to go.

Good luck...

Karz

 

[karz10]

I realized I forgot to chime in on the HG...

I've thought about this too. For me, I ended up getting the Glock 19, which is a 9MM. Some reasons included:

Glocks in general, and particularly the 9MM, are thought to be very tough, simple, accurate pistols. Low maintenance and high reliability are very important to me. Whatever you choose, you better be sure it's gonna fire when/if you need it, which means a reliable weapon, w/ proven ammo that you've run through it...

Even those who dislike Glocks admit the Glock in 9MM is hard to beat, similar to how the 1911 in .45 is just meant to be.

Big enough to have a full hold on it, small enough to conceal.

Also big enough to have 15+1 w/ standard magazines, however you can add extensions or throw in the 17 mags for more capacity if desired, as well as compatability w/ Glock made 33rd mags for fun or SHTF.

W/ 16 rounds before the first mag change, you can react quickly to multiple targets, if need be.

Shot placement is key, under duress, that's 16 chances to place good shots, not that you should need that many in every circumstance.

I mentioned in the previous post I shoot IDPA. While some shoot their .45s, many shoot .45 styled guns in 9MM to score better, w/ quicker follow up shots, even though they may carry a similar .45 on the street. I'm not judging them, they may have valid reasons for doing so. Maybe there would be real world scenario where a few well placed .45 shots would out perform the same number of rounds from a 9MM, but I don't think you lose anything, and may gain something in other scenarios, by having more rounds in 9MM, but I think it's just different, not necessarily better or worse.

I wanted to practice alot, and I'm glad I started w/ the 9MM, since I ended up almost immediately getting into IDPA, I go through a lot of rounds, and it's pretty easy to get 9MM at a decent price, comparitively.

Again, I'm just trying to answer your question, but as others have said, I HIGHLY recommend finding a range that rents guns. You may not be able to get your hands on some high priced 1911s to rent, but many places will rent revolvers, Glocks, S&W M&Ps, and some of the other ones mentioned already in this thread. For me, while I found several guns that felt good in my hand, that wasn't enough for me, I wanted to buy something I knew I could shoot well out of the box, and improve on of course, but didn't want a steep learning curve, so I wanted to shoot whatever I was gonna buy before I bought it. I found that I shot the Glock better, even though I thought the M&P was more comfortable, for example.

Again, good luck...

Karz

 

[Phydeaux642]

I would look at the Springfield Armory XD45 Compact. It is a fairly compact package and should be easy enough to conceal for a big guy, plus you get 10+1 rounds of .45acp to start with and can reload with a 13 round magazine. It weighs less than a 1911 and the XD line of firearms are great (I own two). I carry a little snubbie but I am not in the same line of work you are in (meaning I don't actively feel that I will have to interact with a meth head). And, .45acp is plenty of stopping power.

_________________

"Phydeaux, bad dog....no biscuit!"

 

[gonepostal42]

thanks again, everyone...i guess it all depends on practical application...and my employer is independently wealthy, so i probably have the luxury of renting and trying out as many as i need to...i just wanted to narrow it down to the few most likely contenders first. I think the idea of getting good and proficient on one gun makes the most sense. in the worst case scenario, it should be sencond nature and that's where i'm sure all the training comes in.

 

[BullfrogKen]

gonepostal42 said: what are your thoughts on the good old Ditry Harry .44 magnum? sidebar--to a novice like me, it would seem there isn't much difference between a .44 and a .45...is there?

Go shoot it for yourself and find out . . . Come back and tell us the difference.

gonepostal42 said: After all, we don't want to kill my protectee's ex--we still want him to pay child support

No, you really don't. But not for that reason. So . . . if he didn't have to pay child support, you can kill him and not face any repercussions then?



Your job, if you're going to go into the protection business, ought to be something you shouldn't need the gun to do. You ought think of that job as something you should be able to do without a gun at all.


If you're using the gun, you did something really wrong. You were not effective in something you did. You didn't plan a route well. Or you screwed up on awareness. Or you didn't keep good track of known threats.

Hell, even if you screwed all that up, your job is still not to get into firefights. The job of executive protection is to protect the client. That might mean you get shot in the arse as you stuff his wealthy butt in the car to drive off. If you are shooting back, your mind's not on the client.


I'm not sure what kind of job you envision executive protection is, but its not about guns. And its not about protecting some scared housewife and mommy from her ex, either. The people who can afford to hire personal protection are wealthy. They aren't going to care about child support.


Either a company will hire someone to plan out an executive's day safely, and safely usually means away from the crowds of media and protestors that make his job hell to do. Or its about protecting people who are magnets for public violence of some type. The client who hires someone to protect them from their ex is so rare you'll probably never see it.

Lots of folks may want that. But only the truly wealthy can afford it. Unless you're willing to work for less than minimum wage.


Executive protection is hard, boring work. And your client will think of you as his gofer, his secretary. "Go get my dry cleaning . . . all you do is stand there anyway." "Go pick us up some lunch . . . Go call my famliy and tell them we'll be late."


And most of 'em won't want to ever see the gun. If he, or his customers/coworkers/superiors ever see your gun, you'll be having an unpleasant talk. Yeah, that's why you both think you're there, but seeing it brings the reason way to close to the surface, and that's an uncomfortable thought for those who hired you.



Go get yourself a gun and have fun with it. Any gun. If you're serious about this, there's no way you can make the decision on what's right for "bodyguard' work if you've never worked it before. Get the training first, apprentice somewhere, and use what they give you. It'll be all you need.

 

[sm]

First Gun.

BullfrogKen's Post above is worth reading again for anyone inquiring about a first gun - period.

Body Guards is what I call Personal Protection folks, as this is what they called themselves and we did to back in the day.

For newer folks, read over this thread again, and DO NOT read about specific guns, makes, models, calibers, loads and round count.
Fact is, one never has a big enough gun or two many rounds.

Instead pay close attention to the Software, Mindset, and how folks avoid trouble, and evade trouble.

Folks don't want to see, or hear about "guns". Whether they are Personal Protection or not.

I have met some THR members, and one would not know we knew anything about guns, if we carried, what we carried, or anything else.
Men, and women, and out and about doing what we were doing, "Concealed means Concealed".

Not even family, including kids, ever even suspected.

 

[hso]

gonepostal42,

What was the training like getting ready for the job?

 

[RPCVYemen]

But again, there's that "what if" factor...which is why my employer wants me armed.

The legal questions around being an armed bodyguard intrigue. What kind of insurance do you need?

I assumed that the liability insurance was what made having a body guard so expensive. I have always thought that finding someone willing to carry a gun was pretty cheap - but finding someone that the insurance company is willing to insure would be expensive.

Aren't you also in a weird position with regard to self defense laws?

At least in NC, it's pretty clear that you can't use weapon unless there's pretty clear evidence of motive, means and opportunity to kill or seriously injure someone. So your client's breaking his retraining order and screaming at her, and any number of other terrifying activities are would not be grounds for shooting him. Does she understand all that?

At least in the CCW course here in NC, they make it very clear that showing the pistol to intimidate or invoke fear in someone is a very bad idea.

Any chance that if you do have to shoot your client's ex, his family (or the prosecutor) are going to claim that she hired you to kill him? Or that you're in love with her, and the shooting was a love triangle gone bad.

Are you former LEO? Military training?

Mike

 

[hso]

RPCVYemen,

What makes personal protection so expensive is finding people who are willing to put themselves between their principal and a bullet.

 

[gonepostal42]

this is something i'm doing for a friend who has a welathy relative--the real threat is minimal, and please forgive my dry sense of humor (the quip about child support). I don't mean to imply that i wouldn't be taking this seriously. She would almost certainly be ok without me, but her benefactor has more money than god and lives 3,000 miles away and just kind of wants me to be around in case of emergencies because he can't. It's pretty far from the typical image of a bodyguard as far as an executive or celebrity as described in previous posts. My previous training is that I was a bouncer at a strip club, so I'm used to dealing with people who are intoxicated out of their minds and have no concept of logic or propriety--getting everyone out of a place like that after 2:00am is like trying to herd kittens Maybe more importantly, I'm looking out for a friend, which is why i want to minimize the risk of anything going wrong with a piece should the need to use it ever arise. The realistic chances of that are one in a billion, but it's still there...if her ex should ever go truly off the deep end, there's a pending domestic battery case in the works, he has a few drug charges and DUIs on his record, and she's squeaky clean and used to work for the local Corrections department...logic would assume that any judge would look upon the use of force against such an individual as absolutely necessary...and I'm in Arizona--the laws here lean toward the person doing the defending, and decidedly against the assailant, and that covers a concerned individual stepping in on behalf of an innocent person, especially with a CCW and some advanced training certificates. The last thing i ever want to do is have to use force, but you gotta do what you gotta do.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Good luck getting the license on your own that you'll need to do that kind of work in AZ.


If you plan on working without it . . . then I guess you must really like that friend of yours . . .