Selecting Bullet/Powder for .357 Mag used in 4" Revolver and Marlin 1894 Rifle

[orygunmike]

Gang ....

I've been reloading .38 special for years ... and now have decided to load 357 Mag. I'd like to find a load/bullet/powder combo that works well for both pistol and the rifle.

When loading .38special I have typically loaded 158g LSWC and not given much thought to leading, bullet setback, etc. With the recoil/velocity of the .357Mag and tubed magazine in the rifle, I know these issues come more into play.

Please provide some guidance on bullet and powder selection that will do the job for both revolver and rifle.

thanks much.

 

[LNK]

Do you want Jacketed or Lead reloads? I have found using 2400 with 173gr Keith SWC to be very good and accurate. This load data is available at Alliants website.

LNK

 

[CopperFouling]

I'm curious about the rifle round myself.

 

[chrt396]

I use the 158g JSP with the 2400 and it works well. Lots of shock n' awe coming from the barrel when it fires. 8" flame thrower!!

 

[Rule3]

A flat nose bullet is usually recommended in a tube feed carbine. Less chance of a kaboom in the mag tube. Will a LSWC ignite a primer? I do not know. But that's why they have lever action bullets for jacketed versions.

I use the MBC version and they can be used in the revolver just fine. Punch nice holes.


http://www.missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=110&category=6&secondary=&keywords=

 

[Salmoneye]

If your 1894 is Micro-Groove, you may find that cast needs to be .001"-.002" over groove diameter in order to group well...

 

[rchery59]

Do you want Jacketed or Lead reloads? I have found using 2400 with 173gr Keith SWC to be very good and accurate. This load data is available at Alliants website.

LNK

This, but I substitute H 110 The Kieth is a great cast bullet. Dry Creek bullets is a good place to go, Lynn seems like a good guy and I believe is a member here
If you use 110 or 296 run them hot , downloading too much is a bad idea.

 

[Furncliff]

I was pulling my hair out trying to get an accuracy load for my Marlin 1894c. Take a look at the data sheets for Lil-Gun. My rifle shoots best at the top of the charts. I don't have a .357 handgun so I'm no help there, but if you're big on an accurate load, the way the rifle shoots may be the first thing to work on.

Hogdon's Lil-Gun and Hornaday 158 XTP

 

[Steve C]

For a tubular magazine use a flat nose bullet, any of the JSP, JHP, WC, RNFP (round nose flat point) or SWC bullets are safe, do not use any pointed bullets.

If you have a Marlin with the shallow micro-groove rifling you should stick to jacketed bullets but if your rifle has conventional ballard type rifling like the 1894 Marlins you can use either lead or jacketed bullets.

A slower powder will give you greater velocity from the rifle so 2400, H110/W296, AA#9 etc. would be a good choice. For inexpensive pinking and paper punching you can load and shoot lead SWC's or RNFP with a medium or faster powder where highest possible velocity isn't the goal.

Examples of velocity gain that I've chrono'd from handgun and a Timberwolf .357 mag carbine with 18" barrel are:

.38 spl 4.7gr W231 behind a 158gr LSWC from a 4" S&W 66 averaged 879 fps and from the carbine 1,101 fps for a 222 fps delta.

.357 mag w/ 14.5gr H110 behind a 158gr Rem JHP from a Ruger BH 4-5/8" barrel was 1,232 fps and from the carbine was 1,560 fps. for a 328 fps delta.

 

[gamestalker]

My go to load for the .357 mag is H110 / 296 under a 158 gr. jacketed bullet. But that's my favorite, not everyone likes all that flash and recoil, especially in a revolver.

My all time favorite load is 16.0 grs. of 296, CCI-550, and a 158 gr. jacketed projectile. This is not a load to start at, working up to it is the only safe way to work up to full tilt magnum loads.

GS

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Any .357 Magnum load that's good for your revolver is good for your Carbine. I have a Marlin 1894C and several .357 Magnum revolvers and they all can shoot the same ammo.

I load either a 158gr LSWC or 158gr JSP like suggested above.
The 158gr LSWC can be loaded with 14.5gr 2400 (CCI500) or 9.2gr HS-6. (CCI550)
I load the 158gr jacketed bullet with a charge of 16.4gr W296. (CCI550)

For ammo meant for the carbine only I like a 180gr Cast Performance bullet over Lil'Gun. That's a very powerful Carbine load but I don't use Lil'Gun in any of my revolvers.

 

[Salmoneye]

If you have a Marlin with the shallow micro-groove rifling you should stick to jacketed bullets but if your rifle has conventional ballard type rifling like the 1894 Marlins you can use either lead or jacketed bullets.

A host of people I can point you to would disagree...

Cast can be fired just fine from a MG barrel, but as I pointed out in my first post, it may indeed need to be sized differently than you would for Ballard rifling...

As to the use of the same load from revolver to MG rifle, it may or may not work (as in be consistently accurate) depending on a few factors including (but not limited to) throats on the revolver chambers, forcing cone angle on the revolver, groove diameter of the revolver, etc...

Nothing is engraved in stone when loading for any gun...

All IMNSHO, of course...

YMMV

ADDING:

BTW...

.357 mag w/ 14.5gr H110 behind a 158gr Rem JHP

Though I fully understand the history of this load and where it originated, it is not recommended by Hodgdon any longer...

This load which USED to be MAX according to Hodgdon, is a full half grain below their current recommended starting load for 158gr jacketed...

 

[MAGGUNS44]

I am a H 110 guy when using jacketed bullets, seem to give best all around results in several different guns.

 

[Texan Scott]

You'll never find one load that's perfect in both. Many may be satisfactory but not ideal in either. My advice is to optimize for the carbine, and see if that's not at least useable in the revolver. I think you'll find it is.

 

[flipajig]

I have rifle and pistol combos in 44 mag and have found loads that will work in both. I went for something that would shoot good in both safe first accuracy second loading datta is different between rifle and hand gun. I used 2400 becouse it works well for cast and jacked and my mentor directed me towards it also. Another thing you might have to gas check your cast loads out of your rifle there was a 400fps difference from the pistol to the rifle just a thought.
Flip

 

[buck460XVR]

ADDING:

BTW....357 mag w/ 14.5gr H110 behind a 158gr Rem JHP



Though I fully understand the history of this load and where it originated, it is not recommended by Hodgdon any longer...

This load which USED to be MAX according to Hodgdon, is a full half grain below their current recommended starting load for 158gr jacketed...

Yes, but Speer lists a starting load of 13.2 for a 158gr jacketed in a .357 rifle and Hornady lists 8.6. with a 158gr XTP in .357 rifle. I myself would never go that low, but they are tested and published so I assume they are safe. In my handgun caliber carbines, I've found that H110/W296 like mid to upper mid range loads for accuracy. In .357 that is in the neighborhood of 15.5 gr.(BTW.....this is a max listed load in both Speer and Hornady for .357 rifle) Only better accuracy comes from IMR4227. This is also true in the .44 mag carbines.

 

[Salmoneye]

Trust me...

I am not arguing about H110/W296 load discrepancies between manuals and manufacturers!

I have been beating the drum for years about the widely varying load data for this powder...

My only point was that according to Hodgdon, they do NOT recommend loading below 15gr with a jacketed 158gr bullet any longer...

Here is a pic I took of a mid 90's canister of H110 when they in fact stated that 14.5gr H110 was a MAX charge, and not to deviate more than 3% below that for a starting charge:

 

[Big JJ]

It just seams to me that a 357 mag revolver normally will not be able to hold the same pressure that a 357 mag lever gun can handle.
I would think that the best way to work at this issue is to work up to the hottest load in fps for your revolver and that will be your best load.
If you go hotter than the revolver can handle then you run the risk of blowing up the revolver.
The lever gun should be able to handle anything the revolver can shoot with out an issue.
I saw a YouTube vidio (Ya I know YouTube for what it is worth) where the loader/shooter got 2100fps out of his lever gun.
I don't know of any 357 revolver that would be able to handle that much pressure to generate 2100fps.
I load and shoot both 357mag revolvers and a Rossi r92 357 mag lever gun with loads up to 1500fps without any issue.
Now for me the real plus is being able to load down in fps for my range rounds in both 357 and 38sp. It is very cost effective and a lot of fun to shoot.
With the price of 22LR at all time highs I can reload my 38sp's cheaper than buying 22LR's if I can even find them.

 

[buck460XVR]

Trust me...

I am not arguing about H110/W296 load discrepancies between manuals and manufacturers!

I have been beating the drum for years about the widely varying load data for this powder...

My only point was that according to Hodgdon, they do NOT recommend loading below 15gr with a jacketed 158gr bullet any longer...

Here is a pic I took of a mid 90's canister of H110 when they in fact stated that 14.5gr H110 was a MAX charge, and not to deviate more than 3% below that for a starting charge:

No body is arguing anything here as far as I can figure....just stating facts. If there's anyone arguing, it's you claiming a 14.5 load under a 158 jacketed is not recommended altho in fact it is.....by many reliable published sources. Lyman does not recommend loading below 16.3 under a 158 jacketed. Does that mean Hodgdon's starting load of 15 is unsafe? Is Hodgdon's word the Gospel? Hodgdon also still states in it's published manuals not to exceed 3% reduction from max when using H110/W296, but in their online reloading data they show....yep, more than 10%. Even THEY don't practice what they preach. The huge variance in this and many other powders by different manuals is why many of us use more than just one reference source. Not for being argumentative, but to be informed.

It just seams to me that a 357 mag revolver normally will not be able to hold the same pressure that a 357 mag lever gun can handle.
I saw a YouTube vidio (Ya I know YouTube for what it is worth) where the loader/shooter got 2100fps out of his lever gun.
I don't know of any 357 revolver that would be able to handle that much pressure to generate 2100fps.

JJ........but a lever could generate 2100fps outta a load that is indeed safe to shoot in a revolver because the increase in pressure and velocity is created by the barrel length, not just more powder. In fact the Lyman starting load of 16.3 of H110/W296 under a 158 projectile is claimed to produce a velocity of 1178 FPS outta 4'' test barrel, while in a carbine with a barrel length of 20'' the exact same 16.3 gr produces 1785, a difference of over 600FPS with the exact same powder charge. Loading 125 gr jacketed over 21gr of H110 produced 2207 FPS outta the carbine......while the exact same starting load for a revolver produced 1357 FPS with only 33,500 C.U.P.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

A flat nose bullet is usually recommended in a tube feed carbine. Less chance of a kaboom in the mag tube. Will a LSWC ignite a primer?

A SWC bullet does have a flat nose. It's fine.

http://www.missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=41&category=5&secondary=10&keywords=

 

[Salmoneye]

No body is arguing anything here as far as I can figure....just stating facts. If there's anyone arguing, it's you claiming a 14.5 load under a 158 jacketed is not recommended altho in fact it is.....by many reliable published sources.

Yet again...

"I" am not claiming or arguing anything...I am stating the facts as to what the maker of the powder recommends:

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

" For those loads listed where a starting load is not shown, start 10% below the suggested maximum load and then approach maximums carefully, watching for any sign of pressure (difficult extraction, cratered and flattened or blown primers, and unusual recoil). H110 and Winchester 296 loads should not be reduced more than 3%.

Reduce H110 and Winchester 296 loads 3% and work up from there. H110 and Winchester 296 if reduced too much will cause inconsistent ignition. In some cases it will lodge a bullet in the barrel, causing a hazardous situation (Barrel Obstruction). This may cause severe personal injury or death to users or bystanders. DO NOT REDUCE H110 LOADS BY MORE THAN 3%. "

I have said absolutely nothing about any other data than that from Hodgdon over time...Not sure why that is so hard to follow...

I agree fully that the engineers and lawyers for Hornady, Speer, etc., are absolutely fine with their published loads...

Looking back at old posts, I see we've had this discussion before...

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=658947

Here's a post I made a while back on the subject:

The 'old' Hodgdon published data listed 14.5gr H110 as Max load for 158gr JSP (right on the front of the can, and I will gladly supply a pic if anyone wants it)...Millions of rounds went downrange with that and/or 3% 'lighter' loads (as per their dire warnings)...

Current Minimum on the Hodgdon website for that bullet is 15gr H110, with a Maximum of 16.7gr...

The current Hornady 8th Edition lists 12.7gr Min with a Max of 15.6gr, for a spread of 4 full grains from Hornady Minimum to Hodgdon Maximum...

I hear people all the time on the net saying "Stick to published' recipes"...Ok, then...Whose recipes do we stick to, or does our education, experience, and rational thought come into play at some point?

I do not believe that Hornady, nor Hodgdon, are losing any sleep over their recommended loads being too low or too high..

As to revolver safe loads being 'safe' in a carbine, just for one example my Hornady 4th edition has .44 mag loads for 265gr FP with a max of 23.1gr H110 in a Ruger 7.5" Super Blackhawk, and max H110 of 22.2gr in a Marlin Carbine...That is a .9gr spread...

What is safe in a revolver is not necessarily a recommended load in a carbine...

 

[ljnowell]

2400 is your friend when it comes to magnum loads with lead bullets, no doubt. "Setback" wont be an issue. In fact, its the exact opposite in a revolver. The bullets will pull out of the case instead of push back in.

PS my load for 158gr Lead bullets in 357 mag is 14.5gr of 2400 and a standard primer. Plenty of boom.

 

[Big JJ]

Buck460xvr
I agree with you. I am just saying that the max cup pressure on the revolver will be reached before the max cup pressure on the lever gun will be reached.

 

[gandog56]

I use 2400 for all my magnum pistols. I also Use Precision Bullets "black bullets" While they don't list any .38/.357 bullets, upon request they will size their 9mm bullets to the correct dimensions. I use their 125 grain 9mm bullets . For .38 special, I have always used cast 148 grain DEWC's, and use them for really cheap practice ammo for my .357 mag pistol.

http://www.precisionbullets.com/

 

[ssyoumans]

Didn't see anyone discuss it, one big difference when loading for the 357 vs. Your 38 Special, you got to put a firm roll crimp into the cannulure, especially if loading 296/H110. This is to get proper ignition and keep the bullet from moving forward under recoil in the revolver or setback in the rifle.
Marlin 357 rifles don't always like SWC profile, if going lead, pick a smoother profile for easy feeding. MBC makes one under their rifle bullets. Nice bullet. I use it in my GP100 revolver.
Seems like everyone is suggesting full Mag loads using 296/H110, 2400, AA#9, but if you want to load a solid 357 Mag, I use Unique and a 158gr LSWC. Gets you to a load that is definitely magnum with 1/2 the powder and a lot less blast & flash.
H110 requires Mag primers, none of the rest do, so keep that in mind.

Enjoy and have fun.