Self-Defence Insurance Coverage

[Owen Sparks]

This has the potential to become manditory and that would be an easy way to price most people ourt of being able to afford to carry. This is an exceedingly bad idea that some leftist politicians can use against us all.

 

[leadcounsel]

This has the potential to become manditory and that would be an easy way to price most people ourt of being able to afford to carry. This is an exceedingly bad idea that some leftist politicians can use against us all.

1. I don't think it would pass Constitutional muster
2. IF it were mandatory, it would be incredibly cheap because it would be spread across more people.
3. Most people can afford an extra 25 cents per day at the current cost...

 

[Owen Sparks]

If they can make you buy liability insurance to drive a car why can't they make you buy a self-defense policy for say a quarter million dollars in case you accidently shoot someone? Or worse post a bond. After all, police departments carry millions in liability insurance, will they require us to do the same?

Does anybody besides me see how potentially DANGEROUS this is?

 

[mfcmb]

If you use your firearm in self defense you may end up having to defend yourself in a criminal and/or civil lawsuit.

Basically, the ACLDN will provide funds and expert assistance UP FRONT for your defense(s), and self defense insurance will reimburse your expenses AFTER you've won. I have both.

My self defense insurance is from MMD brokers. For my needs its terms are better than the NRA's. FYI, both the MMD and NRA insurance policies are underwritten by Lloyds of London.

The USCCA program seems to cover both bases, but like many I've been turned off by its marketing.

 

[Crusader103]

WA is unique among States in that if a defendant is found not guilty of using unjustified deadly force, the State gets to pay for that person's criminal defense.

Not entirely true. You must not only be acquitted but your attorney must then request that the jury make a determination as to whether the acquittal was based upon a lack of evidence or that they believed the defendant acted in self defense. If their acquittal was based upon lack of evidence, you get nothing. If they state that their acquittal was based upon the belief that you acted lawfully in self defense, you are right, the state pays.

 

[Crusader103]

I am thinking about joining one of the organizations offering legal help and funds for my defense if I'm involved in a self-defense shooting.

Disclaimer: I am a court certified use of force expert and have worked cases for some of the organizations you mention, as well as others. Most of my work actually comes from private defense attorneys, prosecutors, and even individuals rather than an organization though. Many private citizens and defense attorneys actually contract with me in advance. I just wanted to be up front about that.

Organizations such as the ACLDN have merits so I will not detract from them. I believe they have a very good intent and some good backers. They, and others like them, do have limitations though.

It is true that in most cases, assuming that it is apparent self defense, that they will place a certain amount of money down on an attorney, and perhaps offer additional grants from time to time, though not guaranteed. There are a couple of more things to keep in mind.

Though they are working to try and expand (I am referencing ACLDN here), they may not have an attorney in your area. Travel for an attorney can eat a lot out of that $10,000 very quickly. Even if they do have one in your area, attorneys differ in their costs substantially. Cost is not necessarily a reflection of value. Example: You could have two equally capable attorneys but one will ultimately require a $10,000 retainer fee (not out of the ordinary) while another will require nothing up front if they truly believe that your case is self defense. Some then charge a flat fee of roughly $25,000 (again not out of the ordinary) while others charge by the hour, which may not reach anywhere near $25,000 if you are ultimately not charged and could be substantially more if you go to trial. What I am saying is this, $10,000 is nice to have and a good number to hear but another reputable attorney retained privately by you may ultimately cost less, perhaps substantially less, dependent on the above factors.

Their cost of membership also may not include expert witness testimony. Read carefully. I know that some of these organizations work with a number of respected names (myself included), but there are other experts that, just like the attorneys, charge nowhere near the amount for the same services and have just as good of a record in actual court. Keep in mind that a jury has likely never heard of the big name anyway. It may mean something to you but it likely means little to anyone else.

Here is my recommendation. Research and interview a couple of defense attorneys in your local area. Do your best to find one that is pro-gun. Believe me, it does make a difference. Your local shooting range may actually know of one. You can also contact your local police union. Larger agencies generally employ a private attorney that works on behalf of officers involved in shootings. Since many of them are also in private practice they make good choices.

Often overlooked, I believe it is a very good idea for you to have an expert witness on hand. Again, full disclosure, I am one and accept up front agreements. Expert witnesses can be very costly, are not always even thought of by the defense attorney, and can literally make the difference between going to prison and going home. For those that work with me, their paid annual fee for the services agreement covers their initial case review (prosecutors often choose to charge/decline based upon my initial review while defense attorneys make decisions based upon it about your defense as well). It also reduces their daily fee should I be called to court.

So that is basically the "insurance" coverage that I recommend. 1) Interview your attorney up front 2) Seriously consider enlisting the services of an expert witness.

Please do not take any of that as bad mouthing any other organization offering such services. If their services meet your needs then I highly encourage your participation. Simply do your research and understand their limitations as you do mine or that of any organization for that matter.

Obviously I feel strongly about the matter. I do not believe in self defense insurance per se for the private citizen, but I do believe in surviving not only physically and mentally, but legally as well.

 

[brickeyee]

in case you accidently shoot someone?

You likely already have insurance for accidebtally shooting someon from your homeowner's policy.

The difference is that a self defense shooting is not "accidentally."

You aimed the gun and intended to shoot someone.
Admitting this is part of using 'self defense' in a criminal case brought against you.

No one insures for intentional acts with unknown outcomes.

try reading your auto policy.

It will not cover you if you intentionally hit something.

 

[leadcounsel]

Keep in mind that attorneys take a retainer and then typically bill against it on an hourly rate. For example, you give a lawyer $10,000 retainer and he bills at $200 an hour. If he does 7 hours of work and you get "no bill" or charges dropped... then the balance of $8,100 is refunded.

 

[Owen Sparks]

How about manditory speech insurance in case you say something that gets you sued?

 

[Marty Hayes]

Said by Joshua Scott:

"Though they are working to try and expand (I am referencing ACLDN here), they may not have an attorney in your area. Travel for an attorney can eat a lot out of that $10,000 very quickly. Even if they do have one in your area, attorneys differ in their costs substantially. Cost is not necessarily a reflection of value. Example: You could have two equally capable attorneys but one will ultimately require a $10,000 retainer fee (not out of the ordinary) while another will require nothing up front if they truly believe that your case is self defense. Some then charge a flat fee of roughly $25,000 (again not out of the ordinary) while others charge by the hour, which may not reach anywhere near $25,000 if you are ultimately not charged and could be substantially more if you go to trial. What I am saying is this, $10,000 is nice to have and a good number to hear but another reputable attorney retained privately by you may ultimately cost less, perhaps substantially less, dependent on the above factors.

Their cost of membership also may not include expert witness testimony. Read carefully. I know that some of these organizations work with a number of respected names (myself included), but there are other experts that, just like the attorneys, charge nowhere near the amount for the same services and have just as good of a record in actual court. Keep in mind that a jury has likely never heard of the big name anyway. It may mean something to you but it likely means little to anyone else."

Mr. Scott:

I would like to clarify a couple of things of which you discussed, (above). First, we, (ACLDN) have no attorneys we provide for our members. You seem to think we do. We do have over 200 attorneys involved in the Network, who are membes like everyone else in the Network, who have agreed to assist other members if possible. These attorneys are spread out over 45 of the 50 states, and as you do correctly state, we are working on adding more attorneys. But understand, that each member is urged to locate an attorney of their choice. In the event of a self-defense incident, the member should already have his or her attorney lined up. If they don't, we are not going to be flying one in from out of state, but instead, work to make sure the member has a good local attorney.

Regarding costs of a legal defense, the $10,000 we will provide for a fee retainer for a member's attorney is just the opening bid. It is designed to get the defense going, hire independant investigators to work the case, and allow the attorney to do his due dilligence to get the case resolved before a trial commences. If needed though, the member can request additional funding, and we currently have over $165,000 in that fund to assist our members.

Anyway, just wanted to clarify, and wish you good luck with your endeavor.

 

[cskny]

How about manditory speech insurance in case you say something that gets you sued?

Didn't the OP simply ask if they should purchase clearly optional insurance coverage?

It's a simple financial question, cost versus benefit. Does anyone have experience with the companies, what do they cover, etc. We do know, a shooting can have legal expenses.

It's not a paranoid discussion of *if* someone will then make it mandatory because *he* bought it.

I didn't hear him ask anyone for speculation of his decision's future impact on state and federal law. Maybe the answers should stick to his question, not extreem speculation.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Didn't the OP simply ask if they should purchase clearly optional insurance coverage?

Medical insurance started out as optional and inexpensive too. It is now about to become mandatory. This can go the same way and after the trial lawyers get involved and their buddies in Congress pass legislation giving them a target rich enviroment. Insured gun owners will become low hanging fruit and after a few lucritive judgments insurance prices will skyrocket.
I have seen the same thing happen too many times with medical malpractice, enviromental regulations and anti-discrimination laws. Here we go again.

 

[Crusader103]

Mr. Scott:

I would like to clarify a couple of things of which you discussed, (above). First, we, (ACLDN) have no attorneys we provide for our members. You seem to think we do.

No. I did not say that nor did I imply that.

I am very familiar with you, your organization, and those with whom you are affiliated. I am pretty sure that I have a greater understanding of your organization than most. Indeed, I think your organization serves a great purpose. I will not however blanketly endorse it for everyone because it is not right for everyone.

200 attorneys is great. But 4 per state on average, likely not evenly spaced, means that your affiliated or member attorneys may indeed be a great distance from the client. As you stated, I am simply suggesting that people check out all of their options, including yours, and interview independent attorneys as well.

I think that your putting up an immediate $10,000 is great for the defense of your clients, but I think that it is inarguable that that is a drop in the bucket for many self defense claims cases. As I stated before, that may not get you past the initial interview with many attorneys. The fact that you may make more available is also great, but one cent beyond $10,000 is still a "may" and not a definite. It wouldn't take more than 2 or 3 cases to reach the depths of your coffers at $165,000, so I am quite certain that the amount you allot to each claim is not endless.

I don't think that anything I said was out of line or demeaning to your organization, nor was it directed specifically at your organization.

ACLDN has many merits, but it is not perfect. For some there are most definitely better options out there. For others there are not.

Good luck with your endeavors as well. You have more of a friend here than you do a foe.

 

[Micro]

Quote:
in case you accidently shoot someone?

You likely already have insurance for accidebtally shooting someon from your homeowner's policy.

The difference is that a self defense shooting is not "accidentally."

You aimed the gun and intended to shoot someone.
Admitting this is part of using 'self defense' in a criminal case brought against you.

No one insures for intentional acts with unknown outcomes.

try reading your auto policy.

It will not cover you if you intentionally hit something.

With respect to self-defense shootings, more and more policies are covering just that. A previous post just pointed out policy language that says a self defense shooting is an exception to a the intentional-act exclusion.

I've been handling insurance claims (serious injuries) for 20 years. My company and many other large companies are writing this exception into their policies.