Self defense laws...

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ohbythebay

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Someone posted about secondcall and other defense insurance programs and had me wondering. Are all states heinous to prove self-defense or does it vary ?

I live in WA and it seems they have some common sense on this
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.110

And goes to my two questions 9or 3 questions)

1) IS that just smoke and very hard to prove self-defense?
2) It seems WA covers a situation where it may not be YOU that is in immediate danger but you may be able to STOP a crime (say someone is beating a woman in an alley with a bat). Do most states have that ?
3) God forbid you are in any of those situations (personal danger, stop a violent crime, etc. ) is there pretty much a standard procedure for contacting the police, what to say, what to do ?

Thanks...I think this is pretty fascinating because before deciding to carry, I never thought about the "what if..". I could be totally in the right but could I be financially devastated trying to prove it ?
 
Yeahhhh, there's a whole lotta "what if" to consider if you're going to carry a firearm for self-defense. I'd suggest that you take a look at a couple of threads to get a good overview:
1) "Brandishing", and "When Can I Draw"?
2) Duty to Retreat, "Stand Your Ground", and Castle Doctrine
3) What to Do after a Self Defense Encounter
4) Also dig through The ST&T Library (Sticky Threads Collected)

The exact contours vary from state to state, but this should be a good start to getting your questions answered.
 
As you can see there is considerable material already available here on the subject. I strongly suggest you take Spats McGee up on his suggestion that you review that material.

Remember that everything is based on the foundational fact that our society takes a dim view of threatening or using force and/or intentionally hurting or killing another human. In every State the threat or use of force and/or intentionally hurting or killing another human is prima facie (on its face) a crime of one sort or another.

Our laws do, however, provide an opportunity for one to justify his threat or act of violence against another human. This specifically is discussed in more detail here (one of the threads that Spats linked to).
 
Thanks so much for the links

I really appreciate it. I can tell you quite sincerely I would never initiate or engage in threatening behavior - strictly asking from a defensive perspective. What had me wondering about it was seeing there is actually insurance for this and the scary stuff on the their sites. I would hate to be 100% in the right, defending my family from violence and being devastated for doing so by laws and processes that can break you financially, etc.

Also would like to know more about intervening in a violent crime situation...I have never been in one, never want to be and just curious how it is viewed.

Again my thanks
 
Ayoob....

I don't want to keep bringing up Massad Ayoob, but he's been in print for 30-35 years & has discussed these topics at length in several venues but he also mentioned how a civil action or court case could be made even with pro-2A type state laws.
Some media savvy or political prosecutor/DA could "make an example" :uhoh: of you to a "jury of your peers"(a group of citizens who know next to 0 about lethal force or firearms/tactics).
Research AZ vs Harold Fish. Fish, a retired teacher with no criminal records & a valid CCW was raked over the coals by the police/legal system after a use of force event. Fish shot a violent attacker in a remote area. He went thru a huge mess but was later cleared & the state of AZ changed the use of force standards.

State laws & ordinances vary, they also change or are modified with little notice outside of the legal community. That's why it's so critical for CCW license holders & gun owners to be aware of lethal force laws, to have access to legal aid/lawyers & to know their legal rights. The police & DAs-states atty office are not on your side. Neither are the civil law firms who smell blood in the water. :eek:
 
What had me wondering about it was seeing there is actually insurance for this and the scary stuff on the their sites.

Don't forget... the number one priority of those companies is to make profit. I have yet to hear of a single person who was successfully defended in court by one of those companies.
 
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I have prepaid legal to protect me from my agency, not the county prosecutor. In my experience, the courts are grossly overburdened and the prosecutors have enough on their plate to negate the idea of a witch-hunt on an honest citizen for murder.

It's when a citizen gets mixed up in a Trayvon-esque scenario, when there's public outcry and such, that things get political.

There are times when shooting is *justified* and times when it's *necessary*. I've passed over several insrances where shooting someone would've been justified. I've had a guy dump a mag of 9mm at me, only to drop his gun and run when I drew. I chased him down and marched him back to my patrol car. He took a plea a couple years later. To reconcile it with myself, it needs to be necessary in order to shoot. You'll know when you have no other choice.

Tell the police you'll make a statement through your attorney in a few days.
 
Great post daisycutter...and very true, common sense, action of last resort. Glad guys like you are protecting and serving.
 
Posted by DaisyCutter: In my experience, the courts are grossly overburdened and the prosecutors have enough on their plate to negate the idea of a witch-hunt on an honest citizen for murder.
How "honest" a citizen may have been is irrelevant.

Every time there is a use of force incident, a crime has been committed. It falls to the criminal justice system to identify and deal with the guilty party. Establishing lawful justification when force has been used is part of the process.
 
LE contacts....

I disagree with the "just make a statement thru your atty a few days later" :rolleyes:
Private citizens get pushed to make a "confession" or to create a "spontaneous remark" that could evoke more charges.
LE officers do not care about your civil rights or what you think/feel.
They are taught to gather & collate information then facilitate arrests.
The city attys & prosecutors then decide if the case can merit a full scale prosecution.
 
DaisyCutter said:
. . . . It's when a citizen gets mixed up in a Trayvon-esque scenario, when there's public outcry and such, that things get political. . . . .
While there is some truth to this, the problem is that the SD shooter doesn't get to decide what kinds of scenarios in which he or she will get mixed up.
DaisyCutter said:
. . . . Tell the police you'll make a statement through your attorney in a few days.
This may not be the best advice. We have a sticky on this, as well, and it's here.
 
How about a simple

"I have done nothing wrong. Before I say more I would like to speak to my lawyer and will present a statement through him/her".

When pressed
"I have done nothing wrong. Before I say more I would like to speak to my lawyer and will present a statement through him/her".
 
ohbythebay, I'm going to shamelessly copy and paste one of Frank Ettin's posts, and suggest that you read it thoroughly. He has done an outstanding job of laying out the elements that you need to know about for dealing with the police following a deadly force incident. Frank is a lawyer. I am a lawyer. Neither one of us is your lawyer, though. The post below was written as commentary and information, not legal advice.
Keeping Silent Isn't the Best Idea in a Self Defense Matter

But Don't Say Too Much.

Call 911. Be the first to report the incident and do so immediately. If you don't report it, or if there's a long delay, you will appear to have a guilty conscience.

Then, having taken LFI-I with Massad Ayoob, spending time with him and helping with a class of his in Sierra Vista, AZ not too long ago, I'll go along with his recommendation for when the police arrive.

[1] While one has a right to remain silent, clamming up is what the bad guys do. Following a self defense incident, you'll want to act like one of the good guys. You also won't want the investigating officers to miss any evidence or possible witnesses. What if the responding officers miss your assailant's knife that you saw fall down the storm drain? What if they don't know about the guy you saw pick up your assailant's gun and walk off with it?

[2] At the same time, you don't want to say too much. You will most likely be rattled. You will also most likely be suffering from various well known stress induced distortions of perception.

[3] So Massad Ayoob recommends:

  • Saying something like, "That person (or those people) attacked me." You are thus immediately identifying yourself as the victim. It also helps get the investigation off on the right track.
  • Saying something like, "I will sign a complaint." You are thus immediately identifying the other guys(s) as the criminal(s).
  • Pointing out possible evidence, especially evidence that may not be immediate apparent. You don't want any such evidence to be missed.
  • Pointing out possible witnesses before they vanish.
  • Then saying something like, "I'm not going to say anything more right now. You'll have my full cooperation in 24 hours, after I've talked with my lawyer."

Pleading Self Defense is Very Different From the Common Lines of Defense to a Criminal Charge.

A lot of folks point to the "Don't Talk to the Police" video that is making the rounds on gun boards. But it is about a police contact in general. It works fine when you aren't claiming self defense, and it's up to the State to prove your guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. But things work differently if you are pleading self defense.

Basically --

[1] The prosecutor must prove the elements of the underlying crime beyond a reasonable doubt -- basically that you intentionally shot the guy. But if you are pleading self defense, you will have admitted that, so we go to step 2.

[2] Now you must present evidence from which the trier of fact could infer that your conduct met the applicable legal standard justifying the use of lethal force in self defense. Depending on the State, you may not have to prove it, i. e., you may not have to convince the jury. But you will have to at least present a prima facie case, i. e., sufficient evidence which, if true, establishes that you have satisfied all legal elements necessary to justify your conduct.

[3] Now it's the prosecutor's burden to attack your claim and convince the jury beyond a reasonable doubt that you did not act in justified self defense.

Let's go through that again.

In an ordinary criminal prosecution, the defendant doesn't have to say anything. He doesn't have to present any evidence. The entire burden falls on the prosecution. The prosecution has to prove all the elements of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt.

If the crime you're charged with is, for example, manslaughter, the prosecution must prove that you were there, you fired the gun, you intended to fire the gun (or were reckless), and the guy you shot died. In the typical manslaughter prosecution, the defendant might by way of his defense try to plant a seed that you weren't there (alibi defense), or that someone else might have fired the gun, or that it was an accident. In each case the defendant doesn't have to actually prove his defense. He merely has to create a reasonable doubt in the minds of the jurors.

So in such cases, it probably doesn't pay for you to say anything to the police, at least early on. Let them do the work of trying to amass evidence to prove the case against you. There's no reason for you to help.

But if you are going to be claiming self defense, you will wind up admitting all the elements of what would, absent legal justification, constitute a crime. You will necessarily admit that you were there, that you fired the gun, and that you intended to shoot the decedent. Your defense is that your use of lethal force in self defense satisfied the applicable legal standard and that, therefore, it was justified.

So now you would have to affirmatively present evidence from which the trier of fact could infer that your conduct met the applicable legal standard justifying the use of lethal force in self defense. In some jurisdictions, you may not have to prove it, i. e., you don't have to convince the jury. But you will at least have to present a prima facie case, i. e., sufficient evidence which, if true, establishes that you have satisfied all legal elements necessary to justify your conduct.

Then it will be the prosecutor's burden to attack your claim and convince the jury (in some jurisdictions, he will have to convince the jury beyond a reasonable doubt) that you did not act in justified self defense. And even if you didn't have to prove self defense (only present a prima facie case), the more convincing your story, and your evidence, is, the harder it will be for the prosecutor to meet his rebuttal burden.
 
Thank you all...

This is an amazing thread, really food for thought and a MUST READ for anyone who CC's. I hope and pray I am never in the situation - avoided it for 54 years so I hope my only use of handguns EVER is at the range.

I had read the material posted above from the links provided. And I think in summary (for me, not necessarily for the thread) is the law provides the framework but every scenario is going to be different. We could spend weeks on the "what if this" or "what if that". In all of those cases, it will be scrutinized by others based on the framework, circumstances, precedent, etc. and as pointed out - will be DECIDED by others.

BEST case scenario - never be in that situation...LOL

Again thanks for this AMAZING forum.
 
As I mentioned before, there are a lot of "what ifs." I've had several long discussions about handling police interactions with my CC-ing friends, and the most concise way I know to define the difference between "garden-variety criminal defense" and "defending an SD shooting" is this: In a regular defense, the defendant can say, "State, you can't prove I did it, and I'm not going to help you find evidence." In defending an SD shooting, the SD/defendant sort of has to say, "I did it, but I had a really good reason."
 
Spats McGee said:
...In a regular defense, the defendant can say, "State, you can't prove I did it, and I'm not going to help you find evidence." In defending an SD shooting, the SD/defendant sort of has to say, "I did it, but I had a really good reason."
That's a very good and useful way to think about it. And it's what makes handling a self defense case different for the criminal defense lawyer compared with the usual type of criminal defense. If you're unfortunate enough to find yourself needing a lawyer to represent you in connection with a self defense case, it's a good idea to look for someone with that kind of experience.

Several years ago a lawyer by the name of Lisa Steele wrote an excellent article for lawyers on defending a self defense case. The article was entitled "Defending a Self Defense Case" and published in the March, 2007, edition of the journal of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyer, The Champion. It was republished in four parts, with permission, on the website, Truth About Guns. The article as republished can be read here: Part 1; Part 2; Part 3; and Part 4.

As Ms. Steele explains the unique character of a self defense case in Part 1:
...Self-defense is all-or-nothing. In order to establish it, the client has to admit being at the crime scene, with a weapon, which he or she used to intentionally harm the aggressor. The client has to admit that he injured the aggressor. The client has to convince the jury that if a reasonable person had been standing in his shoes, the reasonable person would have done the same thing. In effect, the aggressor invited his fate by threatening or inflicting serious bodily harm, or by threatening to kill the client.

In one fell swoop, the client has given up alibi and mistaken identity defenses. He or she has given up any claim that the wound was made by accident. Generally, the client must give up provocation (heat of passion or extreme emotional disturbance). Logically, provocation implies an unreasonable response to a situation, and mitigates murder to manslaughter. Self-defense implies a rational response to a very dangerous situation and, if successful, results in an acquittal. Similarly, the client must give up claims of mental illness or insanity and defenses based on intoxication or drug use....

And as she further notes:
...Often, the defendant will need to testify in order to establish his subjective belief about the threat and need to respond defensively....
 
Post 14; bigger person....

I agree with post 14.
Many CCW holders/armed citizens need to be mature adults & sometimes be "the bigger person" or avoid situations that could escalate into violent/lethal force encounters.
Recently, a 34 year old armed security officer in my metro area got arrested on multiple felony charges for firing several 9x19mm shots at a crowd, randomly. :eek:
He was angry with a resident & reportedly trying to handcuff/detain her.
No one was injured by the officer's rounds. He informed the police that he was in fear for his life but a few residents say he fired the pistol behind his back w/o looking. :rolleyes:
Cell video documents that the security officer was also yelling at the handcuffed woman & giving her a "rights warning". Armed/G officers in that area have no arrest powers nor can they read detainees their rights. The state mandated security training clearly says armed guards are not sworn LE officers. :banghead:

If you want more details about this incident, please PM me.
Rusty
 
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