Self Defense or Brandishing? Kinda long

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Bondsman

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I've been wondering about this and if I did the right thing...

I think I did, but I will now leave it to the jury of public opinion -

10-23-03

1900 - I was at XYZ Bail Bonds picking up paperwork concerning some skips and waiting for Bob to finish his paperwork for a bond he is doing out of county. I am going to go with Bob because this will be the first time he has done a bond there, and then we plan on going out after some of the skips.

1910 - John returns to the office, apparently from writing a bond. John gets very upset that Bob is doing the bond, even though he, John, wasn't there to do it. John sits down at his desk which is about 20-25 feet from the front door of the office, where I am standing. John and I then get into an argument about him supposedly calling me a "Thief." Bob walks out of the office to his vehicle, which is parked immediately in front of the office. During this argument John, I believe, is acting very childish. I tell him to stop acting like a "*****." John then gets up and rushes the door and comes to a stop approximately one to two feet in front of me. I am, at this point, still standing in the doorway with my left arm holding onto one of the two doors at the front of the office. When John comes to a stop in front of me he is standing squarely with me. He has his chest out and says, "Did you call me a *****?" I replied that I had and he punched me in the left side of the jaw with his right fist. He had caught me "Flat footed" and unprepared. When he had advanced on me I did not believe that he would hit me. We are both adults and I have known John for well over two years and had not known him to react violently to something as small as spoken words. He talks a lot but that is as far as I have ever seen him go.

When my jaw was struck my head was twisted to the right and I took at least one step backwards which put me inside the office beside a closed and locked door. I reflexively pulled my left hand into my chest with the palm facing outward and my right hand drew my revolver from its holster on my right hip. The revolver was pulled enough for the barrel to clear the leather and was then pushed far enough for my right wrist to lock into my side over my right hip. I believe I said to back off or something to that effect. After John hit me I acted reflexively and how I have been trained. I was on “Auto Pilot†until this point, but I quickly figured out what had happened and did realize that I had done what I was trained to do, my trigger finger was outside of the trigger guard and straight along the side of the cylinder, just as I had been trained. John did in fact back up and said; “Now you are going to shoot me?†I don’t believe I said anything and Bob later said that he did not hear me say anything either though he had heard everything up to this point. I did though yell out to Bob to call the police. John ran back to his desk, grabbed his cell phone and left the office through the back door. While John was doing this I again told Bob, who is standing next to his vehicle the passenger side with the door open, to call the police and I quickly exited the office through the one door that was open. Bob did not appear to understand what I was asking him to do or what had happened.

1915 – With Bob not calling the police I re-holstered my revolver as I exited the office and I called the Police Department Dispatch. I spoke to a female and told her that I wanted to report an assault. I gave her the location of where I was and a description of my vehicle and me. At about this time I saw John walk around the east side of the building where this had all transpired. He got into his vehicle and drove west on XXXXXXXXX Boulevard. I gave the dispatcher a description of the vehicle ending with the first number and three letters of the license plate before he got too far away for me to read the rest of it. The dispatcher informed me that the call had gone out and that someone would be there as soon as possible.

1945 – I now had to leave the office. John has not returned nor has any member of the Police Department arrived. I called the dispatcher back and spoke with a male. I told him that I have business to take care of and that I will come into the department tomorrow to file a report. He acknowledges that and gives me a reference number of MP969 I believe.


This is a chronological report of what happened. So I ask, was it self defense or brandishing a weapon?
 
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all I see is an assault, at no time do you state that
A) John had a weapon with intent to use it
B) you never stated that you were in fear of your life


Not a lawyer, maybe you should contact one before you go file a report. I am sure if you file against John, then he will most likely file ADW against you. Just my opinion
 
I'm sorry, I should have given more information.

I have a CCW here in the state of CA. John does not, but he is known to carry firearms on a regular basis. I have witnessed it many times as has Bob. On this night John was wearing a very baggy shirt and baggy pants. I did not know if he was carrying a firearm or not. He usually carries a Glock 31 or a Kimber .45. He is also fairly well known as a marijuana dealer/distributer.
 
Bondsman-
more info is nice, however pardon my bluntness, but just having a CCW doesn't mean your right. The issue still at hand is was your life threatened. However I do feel that it is important to mention John's occupation and provence for carrying a roscoe. That just might be enough to justify you pulling your weapon as a defensive measure. However once again, I am not an attorney, but you might want to talk to one before you file.

Of course the additional informations begets another question, what is John, being of such the high caliber and contributor to society doing hanging out in your business? If I was going to hang out with low lifes, then I prefer a pimp or a titty bar owner, they know all the chics:D ( just a little humor)
 
We are both adults.

You sure as hell weren't acting like it - either of you. It's scary to think that chest-thumping hotheads like you are not only armed, but actually have some authority under the law.
 
I don't see Bondsman as beeing too much of a hothead in this. People who know each other say things without a lot of heat or intent behind the words. Merely voicing displeasure via a colloquilism. Maybe not high style but common when you believe you know someone. I've said similar before when I believed someone was acting the ??? and the usual reply is some form of "Well &*%$ you too!", followed by an apology sometime later.

When it went physical is where you find the true "hothead" and if I were unexpectedly punched in the face by someone I believed might be armed I'd probably have drawn, too. Considering there's a witness and no verbal threats by the "victim" I'd guess it would be tough to call this brandishing. That does leave the question of why this guy was even around, though...?
 
You did well to control the incident except that you contributed 50% towards instigating it. Speaking to him in the manner you did and using the word specified only served to inflame already frayed tempers.

If you want to keep your CCW, consider this an object lesson in how NOT to speak to people and "kill 'em with kindness" from now on.
 
Red Flag on the Play!!!

I was at XYZ Bail Bonds picking up paperwork...
...waiting for Bob to finish his paperwork...
John returns to the office...
John sits down at his desk...
John does not, but he is known to carry firearms on a regular basis.
He is also fairly well known as a marijuana dealer/distributer.
:uhoh:

John works there, possibly even owns the place?
Bob works there too.
Author sounds like a "bail-enforcement officer"?
John unlawfully carries a firearm and SELLS MARIJUANA!?!?!?!


Shouldn't the original post have started "Once upon a time" ? :rolleyes:


All in all a very interesting FIRST POST for a brand new member. :scrutiny:
 
Well, if all that was told is true, sounds like Bondsman was okay to proceed with deadly force. All qualifications were met.

1) John had already struck him showning his intent to harm him

2) John backed him into a corner where Bondsman had no route of escape.

3) In Bondsman's eyes, John was capable of using an unseen weapon to kill him.

If this plays out, it's a "he said, (s)he said" scenario. Likely to go either way.

GT
 
You were not an innocent party in this altercation.

He only used his fists and you were not entitled to draw a firearm and escalated the situation by doing so.

You will come across many a**holes during life. Learn some empty hand defensive techniques and learn to control your temper or get rid of the firearm.
 
This is a suspicious first post.

Nonetheless, it raises a good point.

Bearing in mind that I Am Not A Lawyer...

There is a legal standard that a true defensive gun use situation requires that the defender be:

* in imminent danger
* having what a reasonable person would consider legitimate fear of GBH or death
* unable to retreat
* a "reluctant participant" in the altercation.

The verbal provocation in this apparently fictional account disqualifies "Bondsman" from that defense.

My advice: Drop the matter and find a job where you don't have to be, or work with, armed hotheads. Clearly you lack the self control for this job.
 
Bondsman, I just went through my refresher course for the State of California. I remember my instructer stating if your life is in danger, or to prevent the great bodily harm to another, you can defend yourself or another person( victom) with the intent to use deadly force. For no reason in the State of California can you pull, flash, or expose your fire arm to someone else, if in doing so this is called brandishing a weapon. To brandish a weapon to prevent a crime is a crime and will cause the brandisher to loose the right to have a CCW in the State of California.
Plain and simple, if you pull a gun on someone in this state unless you plan to use the gun you are in the " WRONG". I would keep my mouth shut, not speak to the law, and cross my fingers hoping the other guy does not contact the law. In the mean time, you should get more specific on the law or you will loose the CCW.
 
all I see is an assault

He only used his fists

Cmon guys, are YOU going to let someone pound you in the face?

My CCW is for protection from gross bodily harm or death.

For me, getting punched in the face any more than 0 times puts me in fear of gross bodily harm, and possibly death.

Remember the kids hockey game where the two parents got 'into it' and the guy killed the other with 1 punch?

The original poster definitely has some issues with life choices, but his natural self defense reaction was right on the money. The problem lies in the fact that he was not completely innocent in escalating the incident.

So, in conclusion, the same situation would not happen to most of us because:

1. We would not associate with known contraband distributors
2. If a situation began, we would not add fuel to the fire

But I'll tell ya, if someone got 'in my face' - in my personal space, breathing hard with clenched fists, and I did nothing to instigate, I'm going to create some space, draw, give strong verbal discouragement/warning, and then it will be their choice to continue or not.
 
sorry but a punch does not equal deadly force, gross bodily harm, is they are getting ready to pull a train on your wife, girlfriend, or significant other, or they are coming at you with a pipe. Fists do not cause gross bodily injury. As for your hockey reference, sure the guy died in 1 punch, however the other guy in in jail for life. That was a freak incident.

As for someone being in your face and pulling your gun, man that is a bad choice. They can get in your face all they want, if they don't touch you then you can't do a damn thing but leave. Being a CCW holder you are bound to retreat if possible and only use deadly force when you have no other options. Verbal judo mixed with halitosis and white knuckles is no excuse to break leather.
 
Cmon guys, are YOU going to let someone pound you in the face?
No. However, apparently, in California, you don't have the legal right to use a firearm to stop someone from pounding your face. It's lethal force vs. what is, right or wrong, considered non-lethal force in the eyes of the law.

My CCW is for protection from gross bodily harm or death.
Fine, but those terms have very specific legal definitions. Much like I can't say "for me, the right to keep and bear arms means I can carry a gun in Illinois" and expect that to save me in an Illinois court, you can't personally redefine a punch in the face to mean gross bodily harm and expect the legal system to leave you alone.
 
Since you knew the assailant for years, even though the attack itself was a surprise, I don't see where you would be in any fear for your life or grave bodily harm. Not saying you were morally wrong (you were attacked) but I'll bet it was technically brandishing. ADW is a stretch since you didn't make any threats and just let him go, especially with a witness.
 
He has his chest out and says, "Did you call me a *****?" I replied that I had and he punched me in the left side of the jaw with his right fist. He had caught me "Flat footed" and unprepared. When he had advanced on me I did not believe that he would hit me. We are both adults and I have known John for well over two years and had not known him to react violently to something as small as spoken words. He talks a lot but that is as far as I have ever seen him go.

When my jaw was struck my head was twisted to the right and I took at least one step backwards which put me inside the office beside a closed and locked door. I reflexively pulled my left hand into my chest with the palm facing outward and my right hand drew my revolver from its holster on my right hip. The revolver was pulled enough for the barrel to clear the leather and was then pushed far enough for my right wrist to lock into my side over my right hip.





Dontshootme,
In California, this will type of agressive behavior will get you put in jail. And the loss of ALL gun rights,>>>


Cmon guys, are YOU going to let someone pound you in the face?

My CCW is for protection from gross bodily harm or death.

For me, getting punched in the face any more than 0 times puts me in fear of gross bodily harm, and possibly death.

Remember the kids hockey game where the two parents got 'into it' and the guy killed the other with 1 punch?

The original poster definitely has some issues with life choices, but his natural self defense reaction was right on the money. The problem lies in the fact that he was not completely innocent in escalating the incident.

So, in conclusion, the same situation would not happen to most of us because:

1. We would not associate with known contraband distributors
2. If a situation began, we would not add fuel to the fire

But I'll tell ya, if someone got 'in my face' - in my personal space, breathing hard with clenched fists, and I did nothing to instigate, I'm going to create some space, draw, give strong verbal discouragement/warning, and then it will be their choice to continue or not.



In the courts, in liberal California, if you shoot someone for "hitting" you, you used excessive force to hault an agressive attack. YOU can only use DEADLY FORCE to hault an attack that you think will cause you great bodily harm or death. If you shoot an unarmed attacker, you had better be ready to prove in court that your life was in danger. If you can not prove this you go to jail




The thing is, Bondsman knew this other guy may pack!. Bondsman also called the guy a b!t(#. Given, Bondsman brandished his weapon to stop further asault, brandishing a weapon is a crime plain and simple in California.
 
If I had to shoot the guy, yep, I'd probably lose my CCW, and all gun rights.

For me, better than speaking with a slur or losing an eye or having no more teeth.

If I present my weapon and the situation is diffused, I still may lose my CCW, but again, the pros outweigh the cons.

Now, if you wish to disregard, or it doesn't matter that I said:
------
1. I would not associate with known contraband distributors
2. If a situation began, I would not add fuel to the fire

"and I did nothing to instigate, I'm going to create some space, draw, give strong verbal discouragement/warning, and then it will be their choice to continue or not."
------
then it really wont matter to tell you that my first response is to GET AWAY from bad/confrontational situations.

BUT still, I WILL NOT allow myself to be pounded by someone if there is no immediate exit, ESPECIALLY if I'm carrying.

Thank you, and have a good night.
 
Penforhire-
ADW is not a stretch at all, Bondman pulled a deadly weapon, it is not like he used his ninja finger that would be simple assault. As for John the wacky tabacky vendor, what he did is simple assault if not something like aggravated assault. However the DA calls it, if Bondman shot him, there is no way it would be ruled justifiable homicide, heck even Barry Sheck wouldn't beat that wrap
 
1910 - John returns to the office, apparently from writing a bond. John gets very upset that Bob is doing the bond, even though he, John, wasn't there to do it.


John, himself a bail bondsman, is also a known marijuana dealer and illegal weapons carrier?

C'mon...
 
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