SWAT officers invade home, take 11-year-old at gunpoint
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TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Citing "facts" from Wikipedia is worse than citing "news" from WND...
Alexa is an information service that measures traffic flow only. All that says is that WND has a lot of clicks.
That gives no real information at all about the quality or reliability of the information.
MiddleAgedKen
Member
Well, a quick Google shows that there is a Garfield County, and that Lou Vallario is the sheriff there. The rest shouldn't be hard to confirm or disconfirm.
Not to defend WND in particular, but as to the question of whether AP or other sources are any more reliable, I have a couple of other search terms that may be of interest:
Bilal Hussein.
The Jenin "massacre."
Not to defend WND in particular, but as to the question of whether AP or other sources are any more reliable, I have a couple of other search terms that may be of interest:
Bilal Hussein.
The Jenin "massacre."
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Here's the story for those that don't want to go looking for it, just for clarity.
That's sort of my point. One news report doesn't mean much, whether from AP or WND but WND certainly has quite a history of this kind of thing.
But the local Glenwood Springs paper has nothing on this? That's a bit of a stretch.
MiddleAgedKen
Member
Is Glenwood Springs big enough to have a daily? That would be a relevant question. I grew up in a town of 30,000, and the local paper was a weekly. I worked there for a while; township trustee meetings are pretty sedate, but high school football season was fun. 
To Texas Rifleman's point, though, the nearest good-sized daily ought to have have something (shortly if not already), or the nearest network affiliate TV news site.
(Edit to add): The Glenwood Springs Post Independent apparently is a daily. Nothing with a January 7 dateline in "Valley News" section at the website, and nothing yet in the January 7 print edition (available online). WND's account is datelined Jan. 7, but a lot depends on deadlines. It may be a day or so before this story hits other outlets, if it does.
To Texas Rifleman's point, though, the nearest good-sized daily ought to have have something (shortly if not already), or the nearest network affiliate TV news site.
(Edit to add): The Glenwood Springs Post Independent apparently is a daily. Nothing with a January 7 dateline in "Valley News" section at the website, and nothing yet in the January 7 print edition (available online). WND's account is datelined Jan. 7, but a lot depends on deadlines. It may be a day or so before this story hits other outlets, if it does.
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Gunnerpalace
Member
Ran a Google news check-----Nothing just this article, I'm now officially suspicious, oh yeah if it did happen more proof that the police are no threat just social workers.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Yes, and there are stories with today's date on them.
http://www.postindependent.com/
The big legal news seems to be that some local dude pled guilty to stalking a woman.
Also this "Home School Legal Defense Association" has a webpage, nothing there either.
http://www.hslda.org/Default.asp?bhcp=1
Well, in checking the Post Independent, their reporting of police actions last occured on Thursday, Jan. 3. (Cop Shop)
According to this report, this incident happened on Friday, I would assume Jan. 4.
If, after their next Police response report, nothing is in the paper, I will dismiss as well.
I would not be surprised if the press were trying to ignore a social worker abuse like this... <tinfoil hat>
According to this report, this incident happened on Friday, I would assume Jan. 4.
If, after their next Police response report, nothing is in the paper, I will dismiss as well.
I would not be surprised if the press were trying to ignore a social worker abuse like this... <tinfoil hat>
hexidismal
Member
And unfortunately I believe absolutely that police responses will eventually use that same policy. This kind of report is evidence that we're closer to that now then we'd all want to believe.
Worse yet, I guess even THINKING that counts towards being one of those evil 'constitutionalists' that Sheriff Vallario is against.
Tommygunn
Member
The use of the SWAT team in this matter is one thing. It may have been overkill, and a horrendous breach of proper authority.
But children and head injuries are nothing to be laughed off as lightly as this family did. While they may be intimidated by hospital bills, how would they feel if the child had collapsed later and had been taken to the ICU, only to be told that they'd waited too long; the child had been bleeding internally, the brain had begun to swell, and there was nothing more the doctors could do.
Head injuries aren't a joke.
This family was being grotesquely irresponsible with their kid's health.
Sorry if this ruffles some feathers here.
About a month ago my 22 year old nephew died as a result of severe head injury due to a auto accident so I get a little fried when this family is being this negligent, and people are getting all wound up 'cause some F-Troop SWAT team does what the parents should have done the second the child had the accident.
But children and head injuries are nothing to be laughed off as lightly as this family did. While they may be intimidated by hospital bills, how would they feel if the child had collapsed later and had been taken to the ICU, only to be told that they'd waited too long; the child had been bleeding internally, the brain had begun to swell, and there was nothing more the doctors could do.
Head injuries aren't a joke.
This family was being grotesquely irresponsible with their kid's health.
Sorry if this ruffles some feathers here.
About a month ago my 22 year old nephew died as a result of severe head injury due to a auto accident so I get a little fried when this family is being this negligent, and people are getting all wound up 'cause some F-Troop SWAT team does what the parents should have done the second the child had the accident.
Owen
Moderator Emeritus
except that the father, as a military medic, was trained to recognize head injuries...
divemedic
Member
Actually, a military medic does not receive the training that a paramedic in the civilian sector does. As an instructor, I can tell you that a coworker of mine was a special forces medic (I have seen his DD214- he is not a poser) and he has large gaps in his knowledge base. Similarly, a civilian medic does not have the training in adult trauma that a military medic does- two totally different jobs. With that said:
1 A military medic would not have the pediatric training that civilian medics would.
2 Even with that training, the visible signs and symptoms of a CHI (Closed head injury) are late stage signs, and they will appear after the condition is well advanced.
In addition:
All patients have the right to accept or refuse medical care for themselves. That is called "informed consent," or "expressed consent." In the case of a minor, the parent is the one who gives this sort of consent or refuses care.
There are certain cases where a person loses that right. Included in those times is when the patient is incapable of making an informed decision, cases like a head injury, stroke, intoxication, disease processes such as dementia, or if the patient is under the influence of drugs, alcohol, or other substances, or if the patient is unconscious. In these cases, the law allows the provider to assume that the patient would want to be treated, if they were able to make the decision for themselves. This is called "implied consent."
A court (in some cases, so can cops and medical personnel) can also order medical treatment, and this is called "involuntary consent." (I know, an oxymoron.) In various states, there are laws that allow medical facilities to treat, even over the objections of the patient, guardian, or parent, if the lack of treatment would constitute a danger to the patient, or in this case, the child. Frequently, parents who are abusing their children do not want their children to seek medical care, because they are fearful of being caught. This is also common in cases of elderly abuse.
It is a complicated set of laws, and we spend a lot of time covering it with our students in class. Even then, not being attorneys, it still is not always understood. There have been numerous books and law cases written on this very subject.
1 A military medic would not have the pediatric training that civilian medics would.
2 Even with that training, the visible signs and symptoms of a CHI (Closed head injury) are late stage signs, and they will appear after the condition is well advanced.
In addition:
All patients have the right to accept or refuse medical care for themselves. That is called "informed consent," or "expressed consent." In the case of a minor, the parent is the one who gives this sort of consent or refuses care.
There are certain cases where a person loses that right. Included in those times is when the patient is incapable of making an informed decision, cases like a head injury, stroke, intoxication, disease processes such as dementia, or if the patient is under the influence of drugs, alcohol, or other substances, or if the patient is unconscious. In these cases, the law allows the provider to assume that the patient would want to be treated, if they were able to make the decision for themselves. This is called "implied consent."
A court (in some cases, so can cops and medical personnel) can also order medical treatment, and this is called "involuntary consent." (I know, an oxymoron.) In various states, there are laws that allow medical facilities to treat, even over the objections of the patient, guardian, or parent, if the lack of treatment would constitute a danger to the patient, or in this case, the child. Frequently, parents who are abusing their children do not want their children to seek medical care, because they are fearful of being caught. This is also common in cases of elderly abuse.
It is a complicated set of laws, and we spend a lot of time covering it with our students in class. Even then, not being attorneys, it still is not always understood. There have been numerous books and law cases written on this very subject.
TexasSkyhawk
Internet SEAL
Think we might be able to keep the religious bigotry to ourselves . . . at least on a gun board?
Thanks.
Jeff
Every time I read an article like this, I can't help but wonder how it escalated to this point. The actions of the authorites seem bizzare (and wrong)...but I have to wonder if so called "Constitutionalists" are able to communicate in a normal fashion. This seems to be an ongoing thing. If the guy had simply thanked the paramedics and promised to take the boy in if any problems arose, nothing probably would have happened. Bottom line - If you don't want conflict, then resolve it, instead of contributing to it, regardless of how unjust it might seem. He'll likely cash in on the event, but he could have had family members killed as well. There is a difference between taking a calm principaled stand, and sounding like a belligerent nutjob -especially when the well being of children is involved.
RoadkingLarry
Member
I don't see anything in the story where they took it lightly. What did you read that indicated the parents "laughed"it off? The kid was examined by "real" paramedics who couldn't find anything wrong but wanted to take him in anyway. If everytime a kid bumped his head resulted in a trip to the ER it would be SRO in just aout every ER in the country.
Regardless of the truth behind the story, what I find more alarming than the story itself is the fact that we so readily beleive it, and that speaks volumes of the concept and reputation police agencies as a whole are creating for themselves in the US.
If the story is true, whether the parents were in their right to refuse treatment for their son or not, the deployment of an assault team weilding lethal weapons to storm their residence is just plain crazy.... yes, crazy.
If the story is true, whether the parents were in their right to refuse treatment for their son or not, the deployment of an assault team weilding lethal weapons to storm their residence is just plain crazy.... yes, crazy.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
WND has been making CNN look like an outstanding source of journalistic integrity pretty much since day one.
If another source such as a local news paper or tv station reports on this story, feel free to start another thread.
If another source such as a local news paper or tv station reports on this story, feel free to start another thread.
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