Sellier & Bellot going to steel plated bullets...drawbacks?

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Animal Mother

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I noticed that S&B appears to be going to steel plated bullets. Are there any drawbacks to shooting a steel plated bullet as opposed to a copper jacketed one? I'm concerned about barrel wear, pressure differences, long term rusting of the round in storage, range acceptability, and possible damage to spinning steel targets. Are these points all moot? The price of copper aside, if steel is just as safe and effective as copper, why haven't we always used steel?


http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/32acp.html
 
Some ranges absolutely will NOT let you use ammo that attracts a magnet.

The steel used in bullets (unless it is designed to be armor piercing) is a very soft steel. Look at how many 7.62x54 rounds have some steel, or are completely steel...no lead.
 
I started buying the S&B steel bullets for my 9mm when they were something like 4.99 a box. they shot just fine, better that CCI Blazer or what ever that CCI ammo is with the nonreloadable casing. Anyway, now that the prices are so much higher i buy what evers local instead of ordering S&B from a catalog. But no complaints here about the round.
 
I noticed that S&B appears to be going to steel plated bullets. Are there any drawbacks to shooting a steel plated bullet as opposed to a copper jacketed one? I'm concerned about barrel wear, pressure differences, long term rusting of the round in storage, range acceptability, and possible damage to spinning steel targets. Are these points all moot? The price of copper aside, if steel is just as safe and effective as copper, why haven't we always used steel?

Good questions. I have been shooting the steel S&B .32 acp (purchased from C.A.I) through my Hungarian PPK clone. I have not noticed any pressure difference from the copper plated rounds (I think they were remingtons) however; I too am a bit concerned about barrel wear.
 
The steel used in bullets is very soft, not quite as soft as copper, but way way softer than the steel of the barrel. It won't cause any more wear than copper bullets will.

Be sure to clean your barrel like normal, and you'll be fine.

The only issue I can think of is the steel making sparks when shooting into dirt or rocks, it may be a fire hazard.
 
I'm guessing they'd treat them just like copper. I believe there's a very thin layer of wax on most bullets to prevent oxidation.
 
Like the OP, I have always wondered about the 'liabilities' of steel jacketed bullets in terms of barrel wear and possible damage to my guns.

I realize that the 'mild' steel used in these bullets is far softer than the steel in a pistol's barrel (especially like a Glock's which is Tenifer treated and extremely hard on the inside), but I cannot quantify the difference between how soft the 'mild' steel and copper (actually guilding metal which is 10% Zinc and 90% Copper) or brass jacketed (being 70% Copper and 30% Zinc) being used in our bullets is in terms of a Rockwell "C" number, if that is the right scale to use in the first place.

Although I know that there are many guns out there that have gone just as many rounds with steel jacketed ammo as ones that have done so with copper jacketed ammo with no abnormal wear issues to speak of, I, for the life of me simply cannot get past these (irrational?) concerns that somehow the mild steel ammo is still messing up my guns.:uhoh:

Perhaps, we could start a 'support group' for those THR members that have such issues with the use of steel jacketed ammunition in their guns? :D:D:D

In all seriousness though, perhaps there is someone "in the know" that could provide the relative hardnesses of the materials concerned so as to answer this nagging question once and for all?

As for corrosion protection, I know that a 'light' copper flashing is applied to the surface of the steel to prevent oxidation and I believe that it also offers a little extra lubricity as well. I cannot confirm this as an 'absolute' fact, though.

ETA: After a 'quick' search I found this:

http://www.cladtechnologies.com/Articles/Hardness vs. Wear/hardness.htm

Typical Hardness Values for Common Materials

Material/Brinell Hardness

Pure Aluminum 15

Pure Copper 35

Guilding Metal (Cu90/Zn10) 40

Brass (Cu70/Zn30) 50

Pure Zinc 82

Mild Steel 120

304 Stainless Steel 250

17-4PH Stainless Steel 297

Hardened Tool Steel 650/700

Hard Chromium Plate 1000*

Chromium Carbide 1200*

Tungsten Carbide 1400*

Titanium Carbide 2400*

Diamond 8000*

Sand 1000*

* Vickers Hardness

Rockwell(Rc)/Brinell(BHN) Comparison

20_________226

25_________253

30_________286

35_________327

40_________371

45_________421

50_________475

55_________546

60_________613

65_________739


Looks like 'mild' steel (120BHN) is ~3.5x harder than copper (35BHN) and considerably softer than 304 series stainless steel (250BHN) and chrome plate (1000 Vickers) (like in an AK or SKS barrel), FWIW.

Seeing these numbers makes me really wanna stick with the copper/zinc (or brass) alloy jacketed stuff all the more after seeing that mild steel (120BHN) is 3x harder than Guilding Metal (40BHN) and almost half as hard as 304 Stainless Steel (250BHN).

Hope this helps,
:)
 
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Be sure to clean your barrel like normal, and you'll be fine.
Here's a question.Does anyone think the soft steel is any More or less likely to buildup in the barrel? if there is build up, what solvent Will get the steel out without hurting the steel of the barrel? Seem like that is a possible concern.
 
No, steel fouling will not be a concern.

I haven't seen any of the new S&B ammo, but would have to guess it is nickle plated to provide a slick gliding surface as well as rust protection.

(Someone with a bottle of cold-blue could test one and let us know if it is plated or not.)

If that is the case, any nickle fouling would be removed with most common bore solvents.

As an aside, many millions of rounds of American small arms ammo was loaded with steel jacketed bullets & shot during WWII without any issues. Ours had a copper wash or cladding over the steel however.

Most of the former com-block countries have used nothing but steel jacket ammo since WWII. But most of their small arms have chrome lined bores however.

rcmodel
 
i personally do not like the sound of steel jackets. copper DOES transfer to the barrel, though it is very small amounts at a time. i would rather shoot plain lead bullets than steel jacketed ones. and i am not a plain lead bullet guy. now, if they could oil or graphite impregnate the jacket, that would seem ok. but steel against steel sure seems like a good way to increase either replacement barrel, or new firearms sales.
 
You better get used to it!

If copper prices continue to sky-rocket on the world market, that's all we will be able to afford before long.

Even Federal is using steel now in their law enforcement .223 training ammo.

rcmodel
 
OK, just to confuse matters more, not to mention myself, I found the following material's BHN's on "wiki":

'Cold-rolled' Guilding metal (Cu95/Zn5): 114 BHN

Cartridge brass (Cu70/Zn30): 155 BHN

Mild Steel: 120 BHN

I am now re-thinking my earlier concerns as they relate to using mild steel jacketed ammunition. :confused:

Looks like Mild Steel and Cold Rolled Guilding Metal are pretty much a "wash" when it comes to their "relative" hardness and BHN's.
 
Steel definately increases wear, and is not good for the barrel, that is why copper is used.
If it is copper coated with a thick enough layer that the rifling of the barrel does not cut through the copper and touch the steel on most shots it is less of a concern. However the depth which various rifling cuts, and a slight deviation in some rounds still means steel with contact, in some barrels more often.

The harder the object in contact with the barrel's rifling the faster that rifling wears away.
Even pure iron is a good deal harder than copper, nevermind steel.

Now if you are shooting from a smooth bore a thinner coating or jacket of something else will protect the barrel steel from the bullet steel as no rifling needs to cut into the bullet. However most firearms cannot legaly have a smooth bore (even though at pistol ranges many pistol rounds are about as accurate out of either) for forensic purposes.
 
The communists have invested a lot of money and time into finding the right steel alloys for their bullet jackets and cases. They are soft enough that you should have no problems in your firearms.

Unfortunately, that hardness comparison website doesn't take these steel alloys into consideration, and is just using 'generics' for its comparison.
 
You better get used to it!

If copper prices continue to sky-rocket on the world market, that's all we will be able to afford before long.

Even Federal is using steel now in their law enforcement .223 training ammo.

I wonder if this might prompt Federal to bring back their Nyclad ammo. I never tried it, but I remember occasionally seeing it several years ago. Anyone have any experience with it?
 
nalioth,

Unfortunately, that hardness comparison website doesn't take these steel alloys into consideration, and is just using 'generics' for its comparison.

Point well taken and agreed.
 
There is more to consider than just the hardness of the metal itself.
The oxides of various metals have significantly different hardness levels themselves, and oxides are formed just during normal use.

Iron oxide (which comes from steel, as it is mainly iron) is significantly harder than copper oxide.
So even when the hardness of the two alloys can be similar, the hardness of the oxides formed during use which are also speeding down the barrel can be significantly different.

Iron oxide is significalty harder than the soft steel it can come from.
In fact the hardness of Iron Oxide is about that of the hardened steel of the firearm barrel.

The oxides of copper are much softer than steel or iron oxide.

Oxides are formed during burning, high friction in the presence of oxygen etc.


There is a lot more at work than just the hardness of the base alloy or metal.

Steel is okay used internaly as a core because it never contacts the barrel, but as the jacket or close to the surface it is very different, no matter how soft of a steel it is.

The communists have invested a lot of money and time into finding the right steel alloys for their bullet jackets and cases.

Most nations that have used steel in the bullets have used it internaly as a core because it is cheaper than lead even though lighter and gives a worse BC.
Some have used it for casings, which is worse than cartridge brass for more reasons than just wear (does not expand and contract as well while retaining its strength), but since it is not in a high speed process with a lot of friction forming oxides, not nearly as bad as a steel bullet jacket.
Launching steel of any hardness and iron oxides down the barrel is a sure way to wear out the rifling of the barrel quickly.


Those nations which have chosen to use it for purposes in contact with the firearm obviously felt the cheaper cost of ammo even with increased barrel wear was a good trade off. In fact it is a good trade off if you don't plan to fire a particular rifle many tens of thousands of times before one side or the other is dead. The lifespan of the barrel, and how long it keeps its rifling with various ammo types is less and less important the less often you plan to shoot it.
So when quickly equiping and arming an army, where growth is more important than maintenance, weapon or barrel life during use is less important than building a lot more equipment and ammunition for the same cost.
The AK platform most of the steel started being used in was already a weapon made to loose tolerances anyways. It is reliable, rugged, cheap to make and replace, and does not need to be that accurate for its intended role. So the steel wearing out and increasing the looseness of those tolerances is not such a big deal.

Some steels will obviously be less damaging than others, but all will be significantly more damaging (increased barrel erosion or "wear") than copper.
 
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Zoogster, you are correct, we shouldn't fire rusty bullets.

That is one reason why all of the manufacturers I know of copper wash theirs during the manufacturing process.
 
it comes down to the same people worried wolf ammo will wear their guns out faster

The steel alloy used is very mild and soft and wont cause harm to your firearms.
 
it comes down to the same people worried wolf ammo will wear their guns out faster

The steel alloy used is very mild and soft and wont cause harm to your firearms.
Very different applications. The hard steel casings are just rougher on the extractor and possibly chamber, but they are not accelerated at rapid speeds with massive friction and heat the length of a tube of metal. That means they tend to stay the soft alloy they are designed as.
They don't expand like brass to fill the chamber, and they lose strength when the dimensions are changed as it is not very malleable, so they are not as good and bad for reloading, but close enough.
With a thin coating steel can function just fine in that role for single uses.

Unlike a bullet.

A steel bullet however will form oxides much harder than the steel alloy itself while traveling down the barrel if it is in contact with the air and heat or friction. So unless the steel or iron is buried deeply enough under a thick coating that it is not exposed when the rifling cuts into it, then you have increased wear.
You are essentialy forming oxide residue in the barrel, and subsequent rounds use it as an abrassive.
Copper oxides are soft, much softer than the barrel. Iron oxides are about as hard as the heat treated alloy the barrel is made out of.
 
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