Semi-auto Vs Revolver Reliability

[Zerodefect]

Wow. This is turning into a one sided thread. Someone go post a "how has your revolver failed" thread in the revolvers section.

1. Bullets unseating in the case during recoil jamming the cylinder. (light J-frames and snubbies)
2. Screws backing out
3. Silly key locks failing
4. Bent frame
etc.

Revolvers are not immune to mechanical failure. I'm not too fond of the fireball shooting out of the sides of my gun either.

Limp wristing is a problem that disappears with proper training and skill. If your useing a proper grip to reduce recoil and increase rapid fire ability, then that grip should be strong enough to not limp wrist.

 

[USBP1969]

I put an identical post in the "Revolver" section.

The purpose was to see if "modern" semi-autos were doing better than what I experienced in my agency from 1990 - 2004. I shoot with the Firearms Instructor for the local sheriff's department. They have about 150 full-time deputies. He owns about 40 guns with 90% being wheel guns, but states that he has never had a stoppage, malfunction, jam (depending on how one views semi-autos) with his issue Glock-22. He also states that when he runs qualification for the deputies or trains new recruits before they head to the academy, that he rarely seen any malfunctions.

1. Bullets unseating in the case during recoil jamming the cylinder. (light J-frames and snubbies)
2. Screws backing out
3. Silly key locks failing
4. Bent frame
etc.

On the other hand, Ed Lovette states in his book "The Snubby Revolver" (A very good read) that in 6,000 officer involved shootings in the NYPD, there was never a report of a malfunction. - kent

 

[Steel Talon]

Every gun is ammo sensitive. I've seen quite a few revolvers bind up on the range due to dirty ejector stars. I've even seen an under-charged round fire a bullet that got stuck between the cylinder and the barrel, rendering the revolver completely useless until a gunsmith with a tool pried the bullet out.

Strike,
Was that with factory ammo or handloads.. I've experienced Squibs in both Semi-Auto's and revolvers due to handloads. But never with Factory. Usually you can punch em out of the barrel with a bore size wooden dowel. High primers will bind the cylinder,as can poorly seated and sized cartridges attributed to handloads not so much factory.

Of the two Semi-Autos are the ones that are ammo sensitive,revolvers no unless the can suffer from +p or +P+. Ive shot everything from truncated to wad cutters

 

[scythefwd]

Jeff - go look up the videos I mentioned earlier. The guy fires of 5 or six rounds out of a glock, perfect function, changes his grip so that the gun is barely supported and has a failure for every shot. Guy changes back to a standard grip, gun runs flawlessly again. It was an intentional inducement of malfunctions by not supporting the frame of the gun while shooting it... aka limp wristing. He did it to prove that it isn't just BS that someone cooked up.

 

[AK103K]

I got into a discussion with maker of that video over that, which eventually led me to try it myself. I took one of my Glock 17s and my old Combat Commander along as a sort of "control".

Holding the 17 in a normal fashion, but with absolutely "no" grip at all, the gun was simply held loosely, resting on the web of my hand and the top of my middle finger. The only thing keeping the gun from flying out of my hand when fired, was my trigger finger in the guard. I also fired the gun with both the wrist and elbow bent/unlocked. I shot the gun this way with four full mags (68 rounds), and had "zero" malfunctions. A couple of weak ejections, but the gun still cycled and there were no stoppages.

Now, if I held the gun sideways like was done in the video, I got more or less a 1 in 3 failure rate. Still, even then, the gun fired more than it didnt.

Now I was also doing this with thoughts towards some "realism" too, since the "wounded or injured" thing always comes up, so I was also shooting at a target at about 10 yards while doing this. When I held the gun as I normally would, injured or not, but with absolutely no grip, most all my "hits" were where the gun was pointed when it went off. Holding it in the very unrealistic sideways grip that seems to get the failures, I barely got hits on the paper (24'x36" photo people targets), let alone anywhere they might count.

Interestingly enough, the Commander had more troubles than the Glock, due to the grip safety not being reliably engaged with the "no grip" grip. There were a number of occasions where I had to move the gun around in my hand to get it to go off.

Im not saying that some people dont have issues with how they hold the gun and shoot it. Something seems to be happening, so its not totally a myth. I personally dont think it has anything to do with a "limp wrist", but more with not holding the arm reasonably firm, and/or allowing or even anticipating the gun going off, and helping it rearwards while firing. This almost always goes away once you show the person what they are doing wrong, and ceases to be a problem.

 

[USBP1969]

AK-103K,

I haven't seen the video, but do have some experience in the area of testing semi-automatics for "worse case scenario" situations. We had the Test Personnel (TP's) at Aberdeen test each submission for our Service Pistol solicitation two handed, right handed and left handed with the weapons being held at the 12 O'clock, 3 O'clock, and 9 O'clock positions. This was done to simulate what could occur (and has occurred) in downed and / or disabled officer situation.

The real acid test is to hold the semi-auto in one's left hand, canted to the 2 O'clock position with both a bent elbow, bent wrist and light grip on the weapon. That puts the weapon at the very edge (or past) the edge of its operational envelope, both because of the lack of recoil resistance and the fact that the weapon is recoiling into its ejection pattern.

A local deputy sherif and firearms instructor of my acquaintance carries a Glock 22, but purchased another .40 S&W after attending that company's armorers school. He said that he couldn't wait for me to shoot it, and when I did I told him that I would probably cause it to malfunction. He didn't believe me. I fired the first two of the three magazines that came with the weapon without malfunction (in the manner described above), but when firing the third magazine it choked repeatedly.

Until that time I had believed that the design of a pistol would be the determining factor with that test, but, even pushing age seventy, I am still learning and now know that the worse case scenario test can be influenced by the magazine.

If interested one can push the semi-auto to the the other end of the envelope by standing with one's strong side foot forward with ~ 75% of one's weight on that foot. The front leg is bent somewhat to accomplish this while the trailing leg is locked straight. The weapon is held two-handed in an isosceles position with a much strength as possible when fired. (If you try this you will note a great decrease in muzzle rise while shooting.)

As an aside, if any handgun, be it revolver or semi-auto, is shot in that manner (properly) with the strong hand only the recoil arc will be less than any two-handed position, except the one described above. Seems impossible, but none the less true. Once this was discovered we began training our dog handlers to shoot in that manner since their non shooting hand was occupied controlling their K-9.

While the one-handed technique described above does give outstanding recoil recovery and tactical flexibility, especially in room / house clearing, it does not provide the long range accuracy of two hand shooting. The arc of movement is just too great, except perhaps for accomplished bullseye shooters.

-kent

 

[USBP1969]

Hello again Jeff.

I am sorry about you experience with the gun dealer. Not good, and I trust that you have since taken your business elsewhere.

What I wrote above is as true as it gets, but it's up to you sir as to what you choose to believe.

FWIW = The deputy couldn't duplicate the problem I experienced while "testing" his weapon. Ofcourse, he is a moose of a man that weighs about 350 and is 6'4" tall.

My grand daughter, on the other other hand, who is slight of build, tried to shoot a Glock-19 I owned for a while and she experienced a failure to feed properly on every shot. The G-19 was in "like new" condition when she fired it and had passed ever test I had tired with it prior to that time. She just did not have the recoil resistance needed to allow the weapon to function properly.

-kent

 

[scythefwd]

jeff, I agree the problem isn't as common as people believe. Like I said, I've had 2 problems in 18 years, on the same gun, same ammo as I always shoot. I'd say may rate of failure for semi autos is somewhere below .0002 errors per round. I've seen alot of malfunctions blamed on limp wristing, and almost all of them were improperly cleaned new guns with shipping grease still on them or crap mags. Every now and again I see ammo compatibility issues. I'd bet less than 1% of errors are limp wristing. If it weren't for the problem disappearong after a cjange in firmness of grip... I woulda blamed the ammo.

 

[wristtwister]

My .02 worth is pretty simple... most problems with guns are caused by the loose nut behind the trigger... and the cheapest ammo they can find.

Semi Autos:
EVERY gun is designed to shoot a specific bullet type... and the feed ramps and magazines are designed to use that particular type of round in it if it's a magazine-fed pistol. Changing the bullet profile from ball ammo to hollow points or tapered-head, etc. causes problems because the ammo tries to feed at different angles from it's "design" angle... so you get jams, misfeeds, misfires, and FTF's from all the other parts trying to work as designed.

All the magazines and slide springs are designed to provide proper spring pressures FOR THE DESIGN AMMO LOAD/CARTRIDGE DESIGN... so feeding it junk food or tamale sauce will also cause malfunctions. Just getting a hotter load doens't mean your gun's working better... it just changes the pressures and spring rates necessary to make it work properly. All these brilliant gunsmiths do when they "fix" most guns is to change out springs and polish feed ramps so they move the ammo into and out of the chamber without hanging up... so please... don't give them magical powers. Guns are simply machines that use bullets as their engines to make them function.

Revolvers:
Most revolvers are pretty foolproof if they're properly maintained. They are subject to wear on bearing surfaces which causes them to get off-cycle, and they can fill with lint and dirt that will cause them to malfunction, but for the most part are pretty foolproof. They are also limited by mechanical parts breaking, just like semi-autos are, and by rough treatment or poor maintenance, just like semi-autos... Their only advantage is that they do not care what kind of bullet shape or load is in the chamber (as long as it is a functional load), so "bullet profile" doesn't really matter as a "functional" criteria. They will feed wad cutters just like ball ammo or semi-wadcutters, or hollow points... it just doesn't matter.

The crux of the argument is whether revolvers or semi-autos are more reliable, and I have no problem shooting or carrying either one. I keep my guns in good repair, cleaned and lubricated, and "ready to rock"... so I can trust my life to either one. I carry high capacity semi-autos because I want as many chances as possible if shooting my way back to my rifles. I carry revolvers in some situations because they fit my situation better at different times, but I trust all my guns to work when called on... and if they don't, I put them in the shop or send them back to the manufacturers to get them fixed. That's what practice is for... gaining skills and checking equipment.

WT