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Sending Colt Python grips from Europe to the US

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K

Kabal

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I've got some nice Colt Python factory grips that I would like to sell. There's not much of a collectors' market for them here in Germany, so I would prefer to sell them on the American market.

The question is: Is it legal to send them to a private person in the US without any license?

I couldn't find an answer on the ATF or US Customs and Border Protection websites. I've sent an email to Customs and Border Protection about 3 weeks ago, but haven't got a reply so far. Maybe some of you can help me out.
 
If you're talking about Colt factory grips (2 pieces of wood that are carved to fit a revolver), I'm pretty sure there is no legal problem sending them to a private person without some kind of license. I've got a pair of Nill grips on mine.

Do you know what generation your factory Python grips are?
 
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gunlaw said:
It's just wood. Send them to whoever wants to buy them.
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And you know for sure that there are no possible legal issues? How do you know that? Can you support your opinion with citation to legal authority? Can you describe the legal research you did to reach your conclusion?

You might be right, but you also might be wrong. If someone relies on your opinion and you're wrong, he could get himself into a whole lot of trouble.
 
There are a whole lot of gun parts from European sources on ebay. Licenses? What licenses? Nobody makes a stink about it.

I suppose we could wake up one morning, open our newspapers, and find that hundreds of people have been arrested (for importing small quantities of gun parts). The odds of that happening are about the same as the odds of winning the Powerball lottery.
 
AlexanderA said:
....I suppose we could wake up one morning, open our newspapers, and find that hundreds of people have been arrested (for importing small quantities of gun parts). The odds of that happening are about the same as the odds of winning the Powerball lottery.
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There's a difference between doing something legally and not getting caught doing something illegally. The question before us is what is legal, not "Can I get away with it?"

If you don't have some actually, verifiable information to contribute, don't bother. If we continue to get unsupported opinions, I'll close the thread.
 
Frank:

The issue here is that some countries are so goofy about (hand)gun parts, that special licenses may be needed to ship or receive them, even if it's something harmless like a wooden grip.

I doubt if there are any problems getting stuff into the US while dealing with simple items, but who knows? And some countries won't let shipping providers (Post Office, UPS) accept such items.

We see it here all the time with magazines and things like shoulder stocks.... Even when the seller is ignorant of a law having been repealed or pre-empted.

In this instance, the OP probably should talk to his local package service (or Post Office) and see what they think. They really should know, although it's probably buried in ten pounds of fine print :D.

(I once had to mail several gallons of plasticizer to TN. The Post Office guys freaked. We were able to find out that it was legal - while the stuff will burn, it's a bear to ignite. The real hazard was leakage - that stuff is very hard to get rid of.)

Regards,
 
It's pretty hard to prove a negative, as in "Prove there are no legal issues." The only way to do that would be to find something in the U.S. code that explicitly states that "Wooden revolver grips originally made in the US are legal to export back to the USA without license." Maybe there's something in the arms trafficking parts of U.S. law that addresses this . . . good luck finding it. And if you do find it, good luck proving it isn't contradicted elsewhere.

And of course, that assumes that our laws are based on the precept that "Anything not explicitly permitted is forbidden."

Hmmm . . . is shipping a forbidden grip from Germany an extraditable offense?
 
HankB said:
It's pretty hard to prove a negative, as in "Prove there are no legal issues." The only way to do that would be to find something in the U.S. code that explicitly states that "Wooden revolver grips originally made in the US are legal to export back to the USA without license." ...
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Yes, it's hard to do, but lawyers have to do this sort of research regularly on behalf of clients. And the way to go about it is to review the laws on importation, especially applying to gun parts, including ATF and Customs regulations, to see if there's anything there that might be applicable.

HankB said:
...Maybe there's something in the arms trafficking parts of U.S. law that addresses this . . . good luck finding it...
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Of course you won't be able to find anything unless you look, and sometimes it's surprising what you do find when you look hard enough.
 
O/P, check with US customs.I did and I know the answer, but I will not post it, as the moderator on this thread is looking for an argument and I will not play that game.
 
I just returned from Germany - having lived there 10+ years. I used the ATF Form 6 to bring several handguns back from there. And, I used several other Form 6's to bring back some pistol magazines. I've checked the ATF FAQ's page:

https://www.atf.gov/content/Firearms/firearms-industry/FAQ-firearms

and it does not directly reference handgun grips - but their guidance is very clear on rifle parts:

"c) For purposes of this section, the term imported parts [tabulated below] are:

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings, or castings.
(2) Barrels.
(3) Barrel extensions.
(4) Mounting blocks (trunnions).
(5) Muzzle attachments.
(6) Bolts.
(7) Bolt carriers.
(8) Operating rods.
(9) Gas pistons.
(10) Trigger housings.
(11) Triggers.
(12) Hammers.
(13) Sears.
(14) Disconnectors.
(15) Buttstocks.
(16) Pistol grips.
(17) Forearms, handguards.
(18) Magazine bodies.
(19) Followers.
(20) Floor plates. "

My recommendation would be just to fill out a Form 6 for the grips, just to be safe, and ATF usually turns them around in less than a month. The PDF Form 6 is on the ATF website...

Edited to add: The Form 6 for occasional imports is free - but US Customs may assess a duty when the grips are brought in.
 
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LocoGringo said:
If you're talking about Colt factory grips (2 pieces of wood that are carved to fit a revolver), I'm pretty sure there is no legal problem sending them to a private person without some kind of license. I've got a pair of Nill grips on mine.

Do you know what generation your factory Python grips are?
Click to expand...

They are Gen 2 grips from a 1972 Colt Python, with the speedloader cut only on one side and the u-shaped checkering.


GeoJammy said:
My recommendation would be just to fill out a Form 6 for the grips, just to be safe, and ATF usually turns them around in less than a month. The PDF Form 6 is on the ATF website...

Edited to add: The Form 6 for occasional imports is free - but US Customs may assess a duty when the grips are brought in.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your input. Am I correct in assuming that Form 6 should be filled out not by me, but by the person receiving the item?


oldbear said:
O/P, check with US customs.I did and I know the answer, but I will not post it, as the moderator on this thread is looking for an argument and I will not play that game.
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It's not like I haven't tried.
I wrote an email to US CBP 3 weeks ago and didn't get a reply. The ATF doesn't even have an email address for requests like this.

If you have an answer, please share it with us, or drop me a private message.


Otherwise, I'll have to contact Nill, as rc suggested, or just call CBP or the ATF to be on the safe side.
 
Frank Ettin said:
Yes, it's hard to do, but lawyers have to do this sort of research regularly on behalf of clients. And the way to go about it is to review the laws on importation, especially applying to gun parts, including ATF and Customs regulations, to see if there's anything there that might be applicable.

Of course you won't be able to find anything unless you look, and sometimes it's surprising what you do find when you look hard enough.
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Hmm, not many people would think it's reasonable for a private party to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars to hire an attorney to find out if a couple of pieces of wood worth perhaps $50 could be imported. I guess an attorney might. lol
 
Speedo66 said:
Hmm, not many people would think it's reasonable for a private party to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars to hire an attorney to find out if a couple of pieces of wood worth perhaps $50 could be imported....
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It doesn't matter if it's reasonable or not. If someone wants the right answer he'll need to do something a lot better than rely on anonymous denizens of cyberspace. Whether that's hiring an attorney to do the necessary research or doing the necessary research himself (including doing whatever he needs to do to educate himself about how to do the necessary research) is another matter.

It's easy to get useless, "off-the-wall" opinions and guesses. It can be somewhat harder to get worthwhile and useful, evidence based knowledge.
 
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I wouldn't count on an email response anyway, since it generally won't be binding on the enforcement agency. An attorney can request an official statement from the agency that may be binding within its narrow parameters (an advisory opinion), or may have enough experience to give you an answer based on research he has already conducted or cases he has participated in. But even a modest fee is likely to exceed the small sums involved in the transfer you are describing.
 
Kabal - yes - you would be the person filling out the Form 6. They would mail the (probably approved) form back to you in a coupla weeks. Customs will want to see the form if you hand carry the grips in - just put a copy in the box if you mail them. For non-serial numbered parts - this isn't a big deal for ATF or Customs (well, it hasn't been in the past, anyway). They don't ask for SSAN or anything particularly nosy on the form - just your name, address and phone number, an accurate description of the part(s), etc. This is something they do routinely and falls in the (in my opinion) too easy category...

Edited to add: there is a space on the form for your e-mail address - and I have been contacted several times by individual examiners. Once, I forgot to fill in one section, the examiner contacted me about it, I made the correction and mailed the corrected form to the examiner by name - and the Form 6 was approved.
 
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Frank Ettin said:
It doesn't matter if it's reasonable or not. If someone wants the right answer he'll need to do something a lot better than rely on anonymous denizens of cyberspace. Whether that's hiring an attorney to do the necessary research or doing the necessary research himself (including doing whatever he needs to do to educate himself about how to do the necessary research) is another matter.

It's easy to get useless, "off-the-wall" opinions and guesses. It can be somewhat harder to get worthwhile and useful, evidence based knowledge.
Click to expand...
Forum Moderator doing the right thing. Don't be upset with him or THR because laws and regulations are are not clear or functional
 
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