Serial Number Location.

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I have this Mosin action that I bought for a song. The barrel just arrived and am ready to start on the project. The only serial number I can find is on the forward left portion of the action that was engraved when it was imported. The action did not come with the original barrel so I have no clue what the actual serial number ever was.

My question is can I have this number engraved on the bottom of the action and then remove it from the top of the action to make it more pleasing to the eye? Or does the number have to be easily 01b5938c1b97bc695062ea92d2702ac4339ee78975.jpg 01800171fd320955340e631d0f65d5fb53a34a0a98.jpg 01683c9dffc210a1e653c17fe5c01f3becaa10b071.jpg 015c6b89a21e7604a67c9ca48ad976ec62ffdc188b.jpg visable?
 
So you put the very same serial number on a different part of the gun and eliminate the old one. Is the serial number you put on the gun going to convincingly look like it was the original? How would you prove it was the same serial number that you removed?
 
So you put the very same serial number on a different part of the gun and eliminate the old one. Is the serial number you put on the gun going to convincingly look like it was the original? How would you prove it was the same serial number that you removed?

humm. Good point. Did not think of that. Damn.

My goal is just to have a better looking action when I a done with all this. I have access to a laser engraver that can put the number where I want and deep enough. But sounds like it might be a headache to do and stay lawful.


Disagree, respectfully.

Serial numbers cannot be removed, altered, or defaced.

You would have to remove it to relocate it and putting it back on would be altering, IMO.

I have two mosin were the import marks are on the barrels. Dont know why but thats where they where put. If I removed the barrels from these the actions would have not serial numbers on them at all at that point. I wonder how the ATF views this?
 
Ask the BATF
Sadly, asking the ATF will almost certainly return a short and incorrect answer of no.

It is incredibly unfortunate how ill-informed the ATF employees actually are on legalities.... Anyone who has ever been through a manufacturer's compliance check will know how painfully correct this is.

The best place to acquire a determination of firearms laws, both federal and local, is a firearms specializing attorney.

Todd.
 
The crime is defacing the original serial number (in this case, the number applied by the importer). It doesn't matter if the number is re-engraved in another location. You've already committed the crime.
 
"Can I move it"...........No.
478.34 Removed, obliterated, or altered serial number.
No person shall knowingly transport, ship, or receive in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered, or possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

[T.D. ATF-313, 56 FR 32508, July 17, 1991]


That said, ATF has in the past allowed remarking a serial#.......but has since changed that view. In fact, at one time they would allow a manufacturer to build a completely new firearm and mark it with a previously used serial# if the original firearm was destroyed or unserviceable. This happens occasionally with silencers suffering damage to the tube, being sent back and the manufacturer simply destroying the old serialized part (usually the outer tube) and giving the customer a new silencer with his old serial#...........but no, that was too easy and ATF no longer allows that.
 
Unless, things have changed since I past knew this to be a legal fact, having been a manufacturer.
The rules are a little different for a manufacturer or importer than for an end user. As a manufacturer, you are the originator of the gun, even if it's a remanufacture of a previously built gun. The previous serial number is replaced by your serial number, which does not have to be the same number, or be in the same location.

In the case of the OP's gun, that's exactly what was done by the importer. Perfectly legal for the importer to do this, but not the subsequent owner.
 
I have two mosin were the import marks are on the barrels. Dont know why but thats where they where put. If I removed the barrels from these the actions would have not serial numbers on them at all at that point. I wonder how the ATF views this?
The serial number must be on the receiver (and in such a position as to be visible when the gun is assembled) but the manufacturer or importer name and address may be on the barrel.
 
Per 18 U.S.C. 922 (k), “It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.”

https://codes.findlaw.com/us/title-18-crimes-and-criminal-procedure/18-usc-sect-922.html

As others have already noted, special rules apply for licensed importers and manufacturers.
These can be found in short summary form here,
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firear...rms-ammunition-firearms-verification-overview

What is repeated in this guidance, is this statement regarding importer, caliber, manufacturer, country of origin, and city and state of the importer, "Must be conspicuously engraved, cast or stamped (impressed) on the firearm frame, receiver, barrel or slide".

Regarding serial and model identifiers, they must be on the firearm frame or receiver in a conspicuous place.
All markings must be at least .003" in depth.

Pre 1968-GCA firearms often bring more because importer markings are generally absent and this is grandfathered so that these can be sold. Similarly, certain cheap firearms such as .22 rifles or shotguns, may have never had a serial number applied to it. Some are in a gray area of the law between the NFA enaction in the 1930's and the GCA of 1968 where the firearm's serial number was obliterated. The first class of firearms are legal to buy and sell, the second class is problematic because it would be difficult to tell exactly when the serial numbers were obliterated. Often model numbers of such firearms or other markings are recorded in bound volumes by sellers as the serial number which introduces the risk that multiple firearms have the same "serial number" This post addresses some of the gray areas in firearm laws which the ATF more or less has not clarified. https://www.pennlago.com/are-firearms-without-serial-numbers-illegal/

Then there are antiques (pre 1899) that have a different set of rules applied (https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/do-antique-firearms-come-within-purview-gca)
 
So you put the very same serial number on a different part of the gun and eliminate the old one. Is the serial number you put on the gun going to convincingly look like it was the original? How would you prove it was the same serial number that you removed?
By taking before and after pictures in a way that there can be no doubt
 
As much as I hate when CAI or other importers laser-pen their import info on the receivers of nice mil-surps or other guns, I know that they have to abide by the rules. I do wish they could be less conspicuous, especially on a gun in great condition.

And Apache County Todd's post above is correct when reaching out to DOJ or BATFE for information or advice on a particular firearm situation. I had a Ca DOJ "firearms expert" along on a search warrant I did involving a guy pretending to be a cop. When we cleared and later on I was asking the "expert" for an ownership trace of a Model 19-4 that I recovered, I sent him the serial number. Clearly he wasn't aware of the late 1970's era S&W K-frame serial numbers looking like 12K3456, he was only familiar with their more modern ABC1234 styles. (I didn't even try to describe that it was "pinned and recessed" to him, his head would've exploded like a Femme-bot in Austin Powers)

We went round and round via e-mail as kept telling me I was reading the serial incorrectly and he wouldn't run it the way I gave it to him. I finally sent him a picture of the serial at the bottom of the grip...and of the inside of the frame where the 19-4 and the same serial was also engraved, and I asked him to decipher the only numbers that appeared on the gun. Amazingly, I never heard back from him again. o_O

Sadly, when it comes to DOJ or BATFE rules, if it isn't written down on paper it's literally up to the person you're talking to to interpret the question...and that interpretation will vary from person to person... and even if you speak to the same person twice, from week to week! :thumbdown:

Stay safe.
 
Thanks for every ones input. Thanks to the rules it sounds like this is no longer a set back. I just need to keep them there and work around them. Bummer, but it is what it is.

nate
 
By taking before and after pictures in a way that there can be no doubt

No, the very act of alteration in the statute and the obliteration of the original is illegal under a plain reading of the text--whether the defacer's intent is good or ill is irrelevant. Read the statute which is posted verbatim in my post above.

Here is the regulation based on the statute above if you need reiteration,

§ 478.34 Removed, obliterated, or altered serial number.
No person shall knowingly transport, ship, or receive in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered, or possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce. [T.D. ATF-313, 56 FR 32508, July 17, 1991]

BTW, Frank has dealt with this question before, and has several case citations here, https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-firearm-with-a-defaced-serial-number.826593/


One can feel free to ignore the following if a reader has already concluded that it is a bad idea to do any alterations to marks.

I found a couple of more recent cases than the original THR thread that were after the Heller decision, including this trial court discussion here: U.S. v. Colon-Quiles, 859 F.Supp.2d 229, D. Puerto Rico (May 4, 2012).

III. Section 922(k) does not Violate the Second Amendment
. . . .To the contrary, section 922(k) does not enforce a total prohibition on an individual's right to carry a firearm—it simply makes unlawful the possession of a firearm with an obliterated serial number that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce. Additionally, defendant Colon–Quiles was indicted by a grand jury of “knowingly and unlawfully” possessing a firearm “from which the manufacturer's serial number had been removed, obliterated or altered.” (Docket No. 1.) Notably, and unlike the plaintiff in Heller, defendant was not prohibited from gaining lawful possession of a handgun if he complied with the requirements established by Puerto Rico law. See P.R. Laws Ann. tit. 25 § 456(a) (2000) (stating that “[t]he Superintendent shall issue a weapons license to any petitioner who meets the following requirements....”) . . . .

While the First Circuit Court of Appeals has not addressed the constitutionality of section 922(k) under the Second Amendment, the Third Circuit Court of Appeals has recently decided this precise issue. In United States v. Marzzarella, a defendant was indicted for possession of a handgun with an obliterated serial number. 614 F.3d 85 (3rd Cir.2010). . . . .
89, In the U.S. v. Marzzarella appellate case above, regarding the district court decision from the Western District of PA (595 F.Supp.2d 596, 2009), the trial court explains 922(k) as amended in 1990,

"Importantly for our purposes, it should be noted that Congress further amended § 922(k) in 1990 so as to also make it unlawful for any person knowingly “to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.” Comprehensive Crime Control Act of 1990, Pub.L. 101–647, § 2202(b), 104 Stat. 4789, 4856. The intent of this amendment was to expand the time frame for establishing interstate movement of the contraband, thereby expanding federal jurisdiction beyond direct interstate trafficking in untraceable weaponry to include intrastate trafficking as well. See H.R.Rep. No. 681, 101st Cong., 2d Sess., pt. 1 (1990), reprinted in 1990 U.S.C.C.A.N. 6472, 6510 (explaining that the amendment will “expand Federal jurisdiction to permit prosecution for transactions involving ... firearms missing serial numbers where the firearms have already moved in interstate or foreign commerce” prior to the obliteration of the mark); Comprehensive Violent Crime Control Act of 1989: Hearing on H.R. 2709 Before the Subcomm. on Crime of the House Comm. on the Judiciary, 101st Cong., 2d Sess. 79–80 (1990), comments of Assistant Attorney General Edward Dennis (explaining that the amendment “would expand federal jurisdiction to permit federal prosecution for trafficking in firearms which ... have had the serial number removed or altered and which have moved in interstate commerce at any time”)."

An American Law Reports summarizes appellate and district case law on the matter of 922k provision on serial numbers. (Validity, Construction, and Application of 18 U.S.C.A. §922(k), Proscribing Possession of Firearm That Has Had Importer's or Manufacturer's Serial Number Removed, Marjorie Shields, J.D., 17 A.L.R. Fed. 2d 685 (2007). )

To briefly sum up their findings, prosecutors only need to prove a) the defendant knowingly possessed or made the alterations to a firearm's serial number, and b) in U.S. v. Adams, 305 F.3d 30 (1st Cir. 2002), the Court of Appeals for the 1st Circuit considered a violation to be any alteration that made a serial number harder to read (that would seem to include moving the serial number to unobtrusive place).

Thus, the intent would be shown by the o/p moving the serial number and obliterating the old one in the facts presented by the o/p. In addition, under 922k, the prosecutors would only need to demonstrate mere possession of the item with an altered serial number (whether the intent is to make a purty receiver or not, is irrelevant under this law). Under Adams which has not been contradicted by any court, merely altering the firearm's serial number (from the importer or manufacturer) and/or possessing such a firearm would be illegal. This would include moving it and worse yet, if you chose to move it to an unobtrusive area, that would also constitute alteration under the law regardless of the intent in moving the serial number.


You also run the risk of running afoul of state laws, such as North Carolina, § 14-160.2. Alteration, destruction, or removal of serial number from firearm; possession of firearm with serial number removed; Florida, § 790.27 Alteration or removal of firearm serial number or possession, sale, or delivery of firearm with serial number altered or removed prohibited; penalties; Washington, RCW 9.41.140
Alteration of identifying marks—Exceptions.; Virginia, § 18.2-311.1. Removing, altering, etc., serial number or other identification on firearm. etc., etc.
 
Smith&Wessons that have the serial number on the bottom of the grip frame covered by the target grip/stock.
It could be argued that such grips are "accessories" (even though provided by the original manufacturer) and thus don't matter if they cover the s/n. The design of the revolver is such that the bottom of the grip frame would "normally" be exposed. Anyway, S&W is traditionally a big enough player in the market that the ATF would cut it some slack.
 
It could be argued that such grips are "accessories" (even though provided by the original manufacturer) and thus don't matter if they cover the s/n. The design of the revolver is such that the bottom of the grip frame would "normally" be exposed. Anyway, S&W is traditionally a big enough player in the market that the ATF would cut it some slack.

It also does not alter, remove, or obliterate a serial number on the frame. Any firearm examiner worth their salt would know where to find the serial number on a S&W revolver of a certain age. S&W's practice of marking serial numbers on the butt of revolvers was before the GCA act regulating markings during the time of splinter grips and the like were common--so the ATF probably gave them some slack as you said.
 
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