So I'm looking to start a youtube gun channel and was wondering how critical it is to cover up the serial numbers of whatever gun I'm showing in the videos? I want to avoid stupid things like a random viewer claiming it's their "stolen" gun (even when I bought it new), or is that just not a problem that ever happens?
Serial numbers in videos?
- Thread starter HammsBeer
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thirty-ought-six
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I've seen hundreds of gun videos, and only a tiny fraction actually do that.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
It happened at least once many years ago and the NRA American Rifleman ran a story on it.
And that was well before millions of people all over the world could click a link and see such stuff.
My advice would be, better safe then sorry.
It only takes a second to stick a strip of black electrical tape over the serial number during filming and whip it off afterwards.
Rc
And that was well before millions of people all over the world could click a link and see such stuff.
My advice would be, better safe then sorry.
It only takes a second to stick a strip of black electrical tape over the serial number during filming and whip it off afterwards.
Rc
danez71
Member
RC,
in some uber-anal way.... could that be considered 'altering or obliterating' the serial numbers per the law?
in some uber-anal way.... could that be considered 'altering or obliterating' the serial numbers per the law?
ApacheCoTodd
member
Nope, you'd have to weld over, grind, acid etch, etc.. to get burned.
A great many firearms have their serial numbers covered or otherwise obstructed by factory and aftermarket fitment of wood and accessories.
Todd.
KansasSasquatch
Member
You wouldnt be defacing or altering the serial number, just covering it up. Ever see someone grip the mag well of an AR-15 to fire it? Well that's where the serial number is on most AR lowers. Not defacing, just covering it up.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Not in any way, shape, or form.
About a gazillion older S&W revolvers left the factory with over-size Target grips completely covering the 'official' serial number stamped in the bottom of the steel grip frame.
You had to take the grips off with a screwdriver to see it.
A strip of tape in a video?
Not even a chance!
rc
About a gazillion older S&W revolvers left the factory with over-size Target grips completely covering the 'official' serial number stamped in the bottom of the steel grip frame.
You had to take the grips off with a screwdriver to see it.
A strip of tape in a video?
Not even a chance!
rc
The odds of it causing a problem for you are pretty slim. But people have lied and reported guns were stolen from them in the past in order to file a claim with their insurance. No one is trying to claim that you stole the gun from them.
In most states the way stolen guns are tracked means the only way someone would ever get caught, and the only way you'd find out, is if your gun is ever used in a crime. The guns SN is entered into a stolen gun database where it would turn up. Only a tiny fraction of guns ever reported as stolen ever turn up anyway. If it were never actually stolen, and you never get arrested using the gun in a crime, it will never turn up. And you'd never know someone had done this.
If you live in a state where guns are registered and tracked it would be impossible for someone to make this scam work.
There are many other ways for people to get the info to do this. The cases I'm aware of involve people who actually owned a gun in the past. When their home was broken into and guns stolen they simply included a few more guns they no longer owned on the list of stolen property to get more money from the insurance company. They got caught years later only because someone who purchased one of the guns had to register it when traveling to Canada for a hunting trip.
The person who legally owned the gun was never charged with a crime, but did have to provide proof of ownership and was without the gun for a few months. No reason to make it easier for criminals and possibly deal with a few headaches when it is so easy to not show the SN.
In most states the way stolen guns are tracked means the only way someone would ever get caught, and the only way you'd find out, is if your gun is ever used in a crime. The guns SN is entered into a stolen gun database where it would turn up. Only a tiny fraction of guns ever reported as stolen ever turn up anyway. If it were never actually stolen, and you never get arrested using the gun in a crime, it will never turn up. And you'd never know someone had done this.
If you live in a state where guns are registered and tracked it would be impossible for someone to make this scam work.
There are many other ways for people to get the info to do this. The cases I'm aware of involve people who actually owned a gun in the past. When their home was broken into and guns stolen they simply included a few more guns they no longer owned on the list of stolen property to get more money from the insurance company. They got caught years later only because someone who purchased one of the guns had to register it when traveling to Canada for a hunting trip.
The person who legally owned the gun was never charged with a crime, but did have to provide proof of ownership and was without the gun for a few months. No reason to make it easier for criminals and possibly deal with a few headaches when it is so easy to not show the SN.
It's part of the overexcited imagination of the average shooter. They typically conjure up highly subjective "What if" scenarios and then attempt to fix a problem that only exists in speculation.
If you bought a new gun from or thru a dealer, no way anyone can prove previous ownership. Think about it, the gun transferred thru the maker to distributor to dealer to you, an unbroken chain of custody, and all recorded on forms searchable by the ATF. Someone would have to show where they owned it, which would be in disrepute the moment they opened their mouth.
As for shooters being extremist conservatives, how did this start? Out of one extraordinary incident reported in what then was a major mainstream shooter publication. It's had legs ever since and all the provenance of rock salt shotgun loads. Everybody talks about them, but it never happens.
If a sense of security in your belongings in important to you, then start by questioning whether you should post pictures of what you own - at all. It could also be said telling the world you have that firearm in your house is about as smart as posting you are going to Greece on vacation starting Tuesday. You just told everybody your house may be up for grabs while you are gone for two weeks.
Compared to that, what serial number it was will be of interest to the police and your insurance company. Considering that over 85% of guns stolen are never returned, it would seem that if you DID photo an SN and have it on the net, it would be a way to increase the odds of getting it back.
As for it being previously owned, it goes to the very few who check to see if it is stolen. It is a low risk, most stolen guns stay in clandestine chains of distribution and are sold to someone who knows it's origins by the nature of why they buy it that way - can't go thru a system to check either them or a gun.
If one did pop up that a previous owner did claim, did he report the theft? Draw insurance against it? Then he was compensated, end of discussion.
If not, woe be to him in this day and age.
First, guns are stolen because they are unattended. Guns in cars, guns in homes, etc. Now, authorities ask why it was left lying around, or who got access to it when they weren't supposed to.
"You don't know where you left a lethal weapon lying around the house and can't remember when it disappeared?"
Not something a "reasonable man" does these days, and difficult to substantiate. With increased gun ownership and self defense use has also come a lot more examination of how and when things happen around them.
There's probably another dozen things that could be said about the subject, but it does go to the typical knee jerk conservative reaction shooters have about subjects like this - and why they get the reputation they have.
Don't post pictures of any of your guns, much less the serial number. But that would cut into the bragging and constant jockeying up the social ladder that forums do.
If you bought a new gun from or thru a dealer, no way anyone can prove previous ownership. Think about it, the gun transferred thru the maker to distributor to dealer to you, an unbroken chain of custody, and all recorded on forms searchable by the ATF. Someone would have to show where they owned it, which would be in disrepute the moment they opened their mouth.
As for shooters being extremist conservatives, how did this start? Out of one extraordinary incident reported in what then was a major mainstream shooter publication. It's had legs ever since and all the provenance of rock salt shotgun loads. Everybody talks about them, but it never happens.
If a sense of security in your belongings in important to you, then start by questioning whether you should post pictures of what you own - at all. It could also be said telling the world you have that firearm in your house is about as smart as posting you are going to Greece on vacation starting Tuesday. You just told everybody your house may be up for grabs while you are gone for two weeks.
Compared to that, what serial number it was will be of interest to the police and your insurance company. Considering that over 85% of guns stolen are never returned, it would seem that if you DID photo an SN and have it on the net, it would be a way to increase the odds of getting it back.
As for it being previously owned, it goes to the very few who check to see if it is stolen. It is a low risk, most stolen guns stay in clandestine chains of distribution and are sold to someone who knows it's origins by the nature of why they buy it that way - can't go thru a system to check either them or a gun.
If one did pop up that a previous owner did claim, did he report the theft? Draw insurance against it? Then he was compensated, end of discussion.
If not, woe be to him in this day and age.
First, guns are stolen because they are unattended. Guns in cars, guns in homes, etc. Now, authorities ask why it was left lying around, or who got access to it when they weren't supposed to.
"You don't know where you left a lethal weapon lying around the house and can't remember when it disappeared?"
Not something a "reasonable man" does these days, and difficult to substantiate. With increased gun ownership and self defense use has also come a lot more examination of how and when things happen around them.
There's probably another dozen things that could be said about the subject, but it does go to the typical knee jerk conservative reaction shooters have about subjects like this - and why they get the reputation they have.
Don't post pictures of any of your guns, much less the serial number. But that would cut into the bragging and constant jockeying up the social ladder that forums do.
Sounds like the simple answer is - mask the serial number. No reason to give anyone, including the feds, a reason to hassle you. Without a SN you can claim any kind of plausible deniability if some meathead decided to make your life difficult just because they can.
And what kind of social family would the firearms community be without at least some pictures and videos to share information? I'm not going to hide in absolute obscurity, and besides, just being on this or any other gun forum is tantamount to admittance of gun ownership. If we don't make ourselves seen and heard on a regular basis, then we have no voice in the public eye. You cannot rely solely on lobbing groups such as the NRA to do all the speaking for you.
And what kind of social family would the firearms community be without at least some pictures and videos to share information? I'm not going to hide in absolute obscurity, and besides, just being on this or any other gun forum is tantamount to admittance of gun ownership. If we don't make ourselves seen and heard on a regular basis, then we have no voice in the public eye. You cannot rely solely on lobbing groups such as the NRA to do all the speaking for you.
leadcounsel
member
Crimes of yesterday look much different than the crimes of today, or even tomorrow.
Crimes that were rare and effectively didn't exist just a few decades ago:
1. Computer fraud crimes
2. Identity theft crimes (among the fastest growing criminal enterprise globally)
3. Child pornography, sex trafficking, etc.
4. Hard drugs like crack cocaine, meth, bath salts, spice, etc.
The point is that nobody - you, me, etc. - can predict what criminal minds will concoct for fraud or money or whatever.
In the military we were trained that small bits of otherwise irrelevant information can be put together like a puzzle to create a big picture.
Given that ANYBODY in the world can access your gun and serial number based on a photo or video, I'd be very cautious posting any identifiable information online. That includes home address, social security, names of family members, number of family members, routines, etc. Once out there it lasts indefinitely.
For instance, I can go on Facebook and literally find the full names, addresses, phone numbers, vacation habits, hobbies, job/hours of work, common routes to work, their "check in" information, etc. of a lot of strangers on their public pages. A few more clicks and a little investigating and you can find a lot more information... if a nefarious person were targeting an individual it would not be hard to figure out everything important about them, and just watch until they post that they are going on vacation, for instance...
I don't know HOW serial numbers could be used nefariously, but can probably come up with a few possible ways.
I'd be cautious and carefully cover them up, and edit out any sensitive information you don't want permanently out there.
Let's just pick a very simple nefarious ploy. You post a video of XYZ wizbang gun with serial number obvious. Someone sees it, decides he wants it, and reports it as stolen. At the minimum, you'll get a visit from law enforcement, and a brief inconvenience of having to pull up receipts and proof. Gun may get confiscated temporarily while you prove ownership. Assuming you can, it may be a slight inconvenience. But what if you cannot satisfactorily proof ownership? Then you're looking at needing a lawyer, being on the defensive, having the gun put in an evidence locker, and then it's your word against the other party with neither of you having much more claim of proof... Then a prosecutor needs to determine who is telling the truth, and even if there's a 1% chance you lose, that is a BIG problem because firearm theft is a felony, and either way you'll be out $ thousands in legal fees.
And it's a risk-free crime for the other person, because it's difficult to prosecute unless one can prove the chain of ownership. So if they know it's a used gun, they can have a chance to score a new gun.
Perhaps I'm overly risk averse from my time in the military and as a lawyer, but I don't take unnecessary risks like this, even if they are very small.
Crimes that were rare and effectively didn't exist just a few decades ago:
1. Computer fraud crimes
2. Identity theft crimes (among the fastest growing criminal enterprise globally)
3. Child pornography, sex trafficking, etc.
4. Hard drugs like crack cocaine, meth, bath salts, spice, etc.
The point is that nobody - you, me, etc. - can predict what criminal minds will concoct for fraud or money or whatever.
In the military we were trained that small bits of otherwise irrelevant information can be put together like a puzzle to create a big picture.
Given that ANYBODY in the world can access your gun and serial number based on a photo or video, I'd be very cautious posting any identifiable information online. That includes home address, social security, names of family members, number of family members, routines, etc. Once out there it lasts indefinitely.
For instance, I can go on Facebook and literally find the full names, addresses, phone numbers, vacation habits, hobbies, job/hours of work, common routes to work, their "check in" information, etc. of a lot of strangers on their public pages. A few more clicks and a little investigating and you can find a lot more information... if a nefarious person were targeting an individual it would not be hard to figure out everything important about them, and just watch until they post that they are going on vacation, for instance...
I don't know HOW serial numbers could be used nefariously, but can probably come up with a few possible ways.
I'd be cautious and carefully cover them up, and edit out any sensitive information you don't want permanently out there.
Let's just pick a very simple nefarious ploy. You post a video of XYZ wizbang gun with serial number obvious. Someone sees it, decides he wants it, and reports it as stolen. At the minimum, you'll get a visit from law enforcement, and a brief inconvenience of having to pull up receipts and proof. Gun may get confiscated temporarily while you prove ownership. Assuming you can, it may be a slight inconvenience. But what if you cannot satisfactorily proof ownership? Then you're looking at needing a lawyer, being on the defensive, having the gun put in an evidence locker, and then it's your word against the other party with neither of you having much more claim of proof... Then a prosecutor needs to determine who is telling the truth, and even if there's a 1% chance you lose, that is a BIG problem because firearm theft is a felony, and either way you'll be out $ thousands in legal fees.
And it's a risk-free crime for the other person, because it's difficult to prosecute unless one can prove the chain of ownership. So if they know it's a used gun, they can have a chance to score a new gun.
Perhaps I'm overly risk averse from my time in the military and as a lawyer, but I don't take unnecessary risks like this, even if they are very small.
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i don't concern myself with it, but then again, I don't typically post pictures or videos of my firearms in the public domain. The only pictures of my guns that clearly show the serial numbers are copied to a CD I keep in my safe in case they are someday needed.
That part about proving ownership bothers me.
Seems to me someone else claiming it is theirs should have the burden of proof, not the person currently in possession of it.
Receipts get lost, and with all the thermal paper used now many actually go blank on their own in a few years. Make a copy some say, but "copies" are easily faked.
I once read a story where a guy's AK was seized by police in a traffic stop, they said he could get it back once he proved ownership. WTH? Shouldn't they be the ones with the burden of proof he did NOT own it?
I can't "prove" I own 99% of my possessions.
All that being said- I'm not gonna show a serial number in a video either
Kinda hard to talk about a gun's features or discuss a brand without showing the gun. Imagine how dull a car video would be without showing the car?
That said, I dont have receipts of my guns, most I could do is go to the dealer and request the paperwork for the nics check. But then, who really keeps receipts of all the stuff you buy? We certainly dont have the receipt still for the $1000 tv in the living room or the $5000 amish furniture, so would they really expect me to still have a receipt for a $300 gun? Photos of high dollar items for insurance would be better than a faded illegible receipt anyway.
That said, I dont have receipts of my guns, most I could do is go to the dealer and request the paperwork for the nics check. But then, who really keeps receipts of all the stuff you buy? We certainly dont have the receipt still for the $1000 tv in the living room or the $5000 amish furniture, so would they really expect me to still have a receipt for a $300 gun? Photos of high dollar items for insurance would be better than a faded illegible receipt anyway.
coloradokevin
Member
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2008
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- 3,285
The idea that showing a serial number is going to cause you legal problems is pretty far-fetched. Even if someone tried to claim that you had their stolen gun (as the rumor often alleges), it would be pretty easy to prove that's not the case (at least with any of the guns I have).
I honestly don't see serial numbers presenting a problem… it's the equivalent of a license plate on your car in terms of risk (maybe less so).
I honestly don't see serial numbers presenting a problem… it's the equivalent of a license plate on your car in terms of risk (maybe less so).
I've been buying guns for over 40 years and was given some before that!
I can't even remember where I bought some of them, even if they were still in business and still had the paperwork
leadcounsel
member
A few decades ago folks weren't very guarded with their SS# either, and just threw bills and statements in the trash. Times and crimes change.
It's even recommended that you take a piece of paper and cover your car VIN# on your dash board. While UNCOMMON it has happened that particularly desirable cars have been stolen by VIN thieves simply obtaining a key copy from a dealer and making off with the car. Nobody would have thought of that, until it happened of course.
Same thing here. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
It's even recommended that you take a piece of paper and cover your car VIN# on your dash board. While UNCOMMON it has happened that particularly desirable cars have been stolen by VIN thieves simply obtaining a key copy from a dealer and making off with the car. Nobody would have thought of that, until it happened of course.
Same thing here. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
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