Im283
Member
I am willing to bet if a student had been carrying at VT today and had used their illegal carry weapon to stop the shooter they would be prosecuted and expelled.
Crazy world we live in.
Crazy world we live in.
Serious discussion on the likelihood of CCW preventing what occurred at VT
- Thread starter lurkersince03
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To me the good thing about ccw isn't protecting others, thats for the police to try to do not me, but that it allows those people that want to be able to protect themselves to do so. Would/did any of those 32 people have had a license? I don't know, but its terrible that they weren't given the option.
lurkersince03
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I appreciate the input. I guess being the original poster of the thread, I expected too much of people to provide input on the topic I had originally preferred to discuss. Oh well.
Southern Gobbler, thanks for your relevancy. I guess this is an open discussion more akin to Strageties and Tactics. So let me ask the community this (in S&T fashion):
If you were there, and you were armed, and you heard gunshots outside of your classroom (down the hall or further away) -- what would you have done? You can be an instructor or a student -- or even a janitor. Not fully realizing that someone is executing students at random with no regard to life (the victim's or the shooter's own), all you hear is gunshots down the hall or muffled shots on the otherside of the building.
What would you have done? Hunted down the shooter? Gotten yourself out of there? Let's say you did get wind that there was indeed a madman shooting everyone in sight as this was going down. Would you hunker down and stay in the classroom as ordered? Or would you, as asked before, hunted the madman down?
These questions drive home the ongoing debate in S&T between saving the lives of your friends and family ONLY (the CYOA plan) or putting yourself at risk of being shot by police/other CCW by trying to get to the shooter to stop the killing (the hero/vigilante plan).
Really, that's all I can ask to salvage the thread. Move it to S&T if it gets to that point, mods.
Oh, and if I offended anyone who carries 24/7/365, I'm sorry, I didn't mean it that way. But if I offended any of the "keyboard commandos" out there, good, I'm not apologizing. There's a difference between someone who's prepared and someone who thumps his chest on the e-nets.
Southern Gobbler, thanks for your relevancy. I guess this is an open discussion more akin to Strageties and Tactics. So let me ask the community this (in S&T fashion):
If you were there, and you were armed, and you heard gunshots outside of your classroom (down the hall or further away) -- what would you have done? You can be an instructor or a student -- or even a janitor. Not fully realizing that someone is executing students at random with no regard to life (the victim's or the shooter's own), all you hear is gunshots down the hall or muffled shots on the otherside of the building.
What would you have done? Hunted down the shooter? Gotten yourself out of there? Let's say you did get wind that there was indeed a madman shooting everyone in sight as this was going down. Would you hunker down and stay in the classroom as ordered? Or would you, as asked before, hunted the madman down?
These questions drive home the ongoing debate in S&T between saving the lives of your friends and family ONLY (the CYOA plan) or putting yourself at risk of being shot by police/other CCW by trying to get to the shooter to stop the killing (the hero/vigilante plan).
Really, that's all I can ask to salvage the thread. Move it to S&T if it gets to that point, mods.
Oh, and if I offended anyone who carries 24/7/365, I'm sorry, I didn't mean it that way. But if I offended any of the "keyboard commandos" out there, good, I'm not apologizing. There's a difference between someone who's prepared and someone who thumps his chest on the e-nets.
Mods - this thread adds nothing so rather than the move, dump it. It is clear that Lurker wants a thread to come out his way - negative to gun usage. Given that folks didn't buy into his math, he wants now to have a moan and groan about tactics and avoidance that might make gun owerns and users look bad.
Let's cut to the chase. If we want a tactical thread, let's have one started without a prexisting bias.
Let's cut to the chase. If we want a tactical thread, let's have one started without a prexisting bias.
lurkersince03
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Yeah, that's exactly what I intended from the start. Because I'm obviously so anti-gun. I agree, though. If I'm going to get replies like that from GEM, then just delete the thread. I don't care to read the emotionally-charged rhetoric from political hot-heads who think that examining all sides of the issue automatically becomes a threat to their rights to keep and bear arms. I'm as concerned about it as you are, GEM. So relax. I'm just trying to discuss a logistical perspective rather than be someone else who says "oh dear me, another shooting."
I'm as concerned about it as you are, GEM. So relax. I'm just trying to discuss a logistical perspective rather than be someone else who says "oh dear me, another shooting."tnieto2004
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The answer is something you will not find here .. Until someone was actually in that situation .. there is no telling what they would do .. No matter what anyone here says they "would have" or "could have" done.. It is VERY easy to sit in a leather chair and say you would have had a gun battle with a BG or in this case they at one point said "multiple" BG's ..
If I were the parent of one of the dead or injured students I would be in civil court as soon as possible claiming the University deprived my child of his civil rights, the right to keep and bear arms, and I would be on every news outlet that would listen to me.
I think it is a failure with terrible consequences to address reality to not have as many faculty and staff as possible armed for such possible situations. How many attacks on schools must we endure before reason is restored?
I think it is a failure with terrible consequences to address reality to not have as many faculty and staff as possible armed for such possible situations. How many attacks on schools must we endure before reason is restored?
tnieto2004
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This would not hold up in court .. You are not forced to go to that university .. But by being enrolled you agree to abide by the rules .. The school for sure has statements protecting them from civil cases like this ..
I wish things were not this way ..
tnieto2004
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Oops double post
tnieto2004
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- Joined
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Oops double post
Vertical Resolution
Member
We need to ask national news if CCW's could have minimised this tragedy
ASK CNN what are you curious to know about the day's top stories? Ask here.
http://www.cnn.com/CNN/askcnn/
CNN will choose the best questions and put the answers on TV and the Web.
I believe responsible armed citizens most certainly would have minimised the number of dead, this will do more then all the newest security technology a campus could afford!
ASK CNN what are you curious to know about the day's top stories? Ask here.
http://www.cnn.com/CNN/askcnn/
CNN will choose the best questions and put the answers on TV and the Web.
I believe responsible armed citizens most certainly would have minimised the number of dead, this will do more then all the newest security technology a campus could afford!
PaladinX13
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- Dec 29, 2002
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- 747
Dateline NBC just mentioned the shooter was wearing body armor... just food for thought.
Vertical Resolution
Member
The Glen Beck show touched on the CCW subject briefly... but no other national news agencies has explored this as a possible solution.
Sistema1927
Member
It would have only taken one. If Suzanne Gratia-Hupp had not left her revolver in her glovebox as mandated by prevailing Texas law when she ate at the Luby's that fateful day in Killeen both her mom and dad may not have been murdered.
Robert Hairless
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Sorry, but you entirely miss the point of concealed carry permits.
The permit only entitles its holder to a last best chance at defending his life against an imminent threat by someone with superior force. It does not enable anyone to be a vigilante, a surrogate police officer, or a crime fighter.
So it's wrong to debate the value of concealed weapons permits in terms of someone stopping a murderer and saving humanity. That's wrong because such a debate is unrealistic and unreasonable. You make us all look as if we're fantasizing when you argue that any of us could have, would have, or should have stopped the killer. It is fair to say that we might have. That claim is reasonable and realistic.
Remember that not even the best trained police officer is guaranteed the ability to find and stop a killer. If police officers had that ability, no police officer would ever be murdered in the line of duty.
The point is that every one of those murdered people was deprived of his or her own last best chance to survive. Had any of them been able to defend his or her life, the killer would have been prevented from murdering other people too.
I'm not splitting hairs. The prophylactic effect would have been incidental to, not the primary goal of, the murdered person's ability to defend himself. Any of those people might have been murdered anyway but each of them deserved the chance of surviving.
The decision to survive should be left to the individual whose life is at stake. It should not be part of the price anyone must pay for higher education. University presidents are not required to pay that price. They are protected by armed campus police. Students, faculty, and other employees are lesser beings in the eyes of university presidents.
None of those people survived because Virginia Tech denies that opportunity to everyone who enters its campus. The university thinks that if no one can defend himself everyone is safe. Universities think that way. Most universities think the same way. Virginia's legislature, like most state legislatures, agrees with that thinking.
The permit only entitles its holder to a last best chance at defending his life against an imminent threat by someone with superior force. It does not enable anyone to be a vigilante, a surrogate police officer, or a crime fighter.
So it's wrong to debate the value of concealed weapons permits in terms of someone stopping a murderer and saving humanity. That's wrong because such a debate is unrealistic and unreasonable. You make us all look as if we're fantasizing when you argue that any of us could have, would have, or should have stopped the killer. It is fair to say that we might have. That claim is reasonable and realistic.
Remember that not even the best trained police officer is guaranteed the ability to find and stop a killer. If police officers had that ability, no police officer would ever be murdered in the line of duty.
The point is that every one of those murdered people was deprived of his or her own last best chance to survive. Had any of them been able to defend his or her life, the killer would have been prevented from murdering other people too.
I'm not splitting hairs. The prophylactic effect would have been incidental to, not the primary goal of, the murdered person's ability to defend himself. Any of those people might have been murdered anyway but each of them deserved the chance of surviving.
The decision to survive should be left to the individual whose life is at stake. It should not be part of the price anyone must pay for higher education. University presidents are not required to pay that price. They are protected by armed campus police. Students, faculty, and other employees are lesser beings in the eyes of university presidents.
None of those people survived because Virginia Tech denies that opportunity to everyone who enters its campus. The university thinks that if no one can defend himself everyone is safe. Universities think that way. Most universities think the same way. Virginia's legislature, like most state legislatures, agrees with that thinking.
AZTOY
Member
Well the first shooting was in the dorm.
So if a students was allowed to have there deer gun or duck gun in the dorm, this could have been stopped.:banghead:
So if a students was allowed to have there deer gun or duck gun in the dorm, this could have been stopped.:banghead:
gyp_c2
Member
yup...
It's a deterrent...see...like I know you have yours but you don't know if I have mine...or she hers...etc...
...besides, they should have had the choice...not be relegated to sheep status, waiting in-line to be shot...Fight or Flight, either is okay...just never, ever comply with a demand to die meekly...
...as usual, RH is spot-on...
It's a deterrent...see...like I know you have yours but you don't know if I have mine...or she hers...etc...
...besides, they should have had the choice...not be relegated to sheep status, waiting in-line to be shot...Fight or Flight, either is okay...just never, ever comply with a demand to die meekly...
GHF
Member
An Element That The Media Is Overlooking
Thanks to the VCDL, the issue of carrying concealed weapons on the Virginia Tech campus by students and staff has been heavily discussed in the Blacksburg area.
The school is against it, and attempts to change the law in Richmond have failed. My point is that the shooter, unless he just got off a bus from somewhere a thousand miles away, would have known that it was a Free Fire Zone.
This would have been reinforced by the killing of two LEOs by an escaped con on campus last fall.
Thanks to the VCDL, the issue of carrying concealed weapons on the Virginia Tech campus by students and staff has been heavily discussed in the Blacksburg area.
The school is against it, and attempts to change the law in Richmond have failed. My point is that the shooter, unless he just got off a bus from somewhere a thousand miles away, would have known that it was a Free Fire Zone.
This would have been reinforced by the killing of two LEOs by an escaped con on campus last fall.
recondoc
Member
Here's what's sad. From Jan 2006
Gun bill gets shot down by panel
HB 1572, which would have allowed handguns on college campuses, died in subcommittee.
By Greg Esposito
381-1675
A bill that would have given college students and employees the right to carry handguns on campus died with nary a shot being fired in the General Assembly.
House Bill 1572 didn't get through the House Committee on Militia, Police and Public Safety. It died Monday in the subcommittee stage, the first of several hurdles bills must overcome before becoming laws.
The bill was proposed by Del. Todd Gilbert, R-Shenandoah County, on behalf of the Virginia Citizens Defense League. Gilbert was unavailable Monday and spokesman Gary Frink would not comment on the bill's defeat other than to say the issue was dead for this General Assembly session.
Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."
Del. Dave Nutter, R-Christiansburg, would not comment Monday because he was not part of the subcommittee that discussed the bill.
Most universities in Virginia require students and employees, other than police, to check their guns with police or campus security upon entering campus. The legislation was designed to prohibit public universities from making "rules or regulations limiting or abridging the ability of a student who possesses a valid concealed handgun permit ... from lawfully carrying a concealed handgun."
The legislation allowed for exceptions for participants in athletic events, storage of guns in residence halls and military training programs.
Last spring a Virginia Tech student was disciplined for bringing a handgun to class, despite having a concealed handgun permit. Some gun owners questioned the university's authority, while the Virginia Association of Chiefs of Police came out against the presence of guns on campus.
In June, Tech's governing board approved a violence prevention policy reiterating its ban on students or employees carrying guns and prohibiting visitors from bringing them into campus facilities.
Gun bill gets shot down by panel
HB 1572, which would have allowed handguns on college campuses, died in subcommittee.
By Greg Esposito
381-1675
A bill that would have given college students and employees the right to carry handguns on campus died with nary a shot being fired in the General Assembly.
House Bill 1572 didn't get through the House Committee on Militia, Police and Public Safety. It died Monday in the subcommittee stage, the first of several hurdles bills must overcome before becoming laws.
The bill was proposed by Del. Todd Gilbert, R-Shenandoah County, on behalf of the Virginia Citizens Defense League. Gilbert was unavailable Monday and spokesman Gary Frink would not comment on the bill's defeat other than to say the issue was dead for this General Assembly session.
Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."
Del. Dave Nutter, R-Christiansburg, would not comment Monday because he was not part of the subcommittee that discussed the bill.
Most universities in Virginia require students and employees, other than police, to check their guns with police or campus security upon entering campus. The legislation was designed to prohibit public universities from making "rules or regulations limiting or abridging the ability of a student who possesses a valid concealed handgun permit ... from lawfully carrying a concealed handgun."
The legislation allowed for exceptions for participants in athletic events, storage of guns in residence halls and military training programs.
Last spring a Virginia Tech student was disciplined for bringing a handgun to class, despite having a concealed handgun permit. Some gun owners questioned the university's authority, while the Virginia Association of Chiefs of Police came out against the presence of guns on campus.
In June, Tech's governing board approved a violence prevention policy reiterating its ban on students or employees carrying guns and prohibiting visitors from bringing them into campus facilities.
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