Shipment of ANTIQUE (pre 1899) production revolver from New Jersey to Pennsylvania

orpington

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Can a private individual ship an 1880 production revolver from New Jersey to another private individual in Pennsylvania? Or are the services of an FFL required in New Hersey? And does that New Jersey FFL have to ship to an FFL in Pennsylvania or can it be shipped directly to a private individual in Pennsylvania?
 
I believe you're OK with a direct transfer without any FFLs, but with Jersey...???

Your “belief” isn’t much to go on when the penalties if you’re wrong can be significant. If the best you can do on a legal question is post your belief, unsupported with citation to legal authority, don’t bother posting, especially in the Legal Forum.
 
Time and again the rules of this forum have been posted. It's for questions of law, specific laws, with citations. Good basic advice has often been given as was the case here. Do some legwork and if a specific legal question arises it may benefit all to see it.
 
You WILL need to involve a FFL.

You will also need to c0ntact a NJ dealer.

USPS Publication 52 says:

432.2 Handguns​


Handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in this section, after the filing of an affidavit or statement described in 432.22 or 432.24, and are subject to the following:


  1. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 431.2 and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 431.3.
  2. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 431.2, which are certified by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum that exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest, may be accepted for mailing between governmental museums without regard to the restrictions provided for handguns in 432.21 through 432.24 and Exhibit 432.25.
  3. Air guns (see 431.6) that do not fall within the definition of firearms under 431.1 and are capable of being concealed on a person are mailable, but must include Adult Signature service under DMM 503.8. Mailers must comply with all applicable state and local regulations.
  4. Parts of handguns are mailable, except for handgun frames, receivers or other parts or components regulated under Chapter 44, Title 18, U.S.C.
  5. Mailers are also subject to applicable restrictions by governments of a state, territory, or district.
 
New Jersey considers antique and black powder weapons to be firearms. The same rules apply as with modern firearms.
 
Air guns (see 431.6) that do not fall within the definition of firearms under 431.1 and are capable of being concealed on a person are mailable, but must include Adult Signature service under DMM 503.8. Mailers must comply with all applicable state and local regulations.

The postal clerk got almost hysterical when I attempted to mail my Walther LP2 off for repair. The postmaster was calmer but not helpful. I finally got a FFL to paper it through the PO.
 
Strange how laws/rules are written. One has to read the entire paragraph to understand what that paragraph says. From one of the responses.
Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 431.2 and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 431.3.

As I read the entire paragraph below an antique can be mailed if it doesn’t use fixed ammunition unless it has a frame or receiver. The conversion issue and reproduction issues separate issues. So would a S&W top break made in 1880 that has a frame and fires fixed ammunition be mailable? I think it is but I’ll wait for feedback as one has to read and reread this to come to that conclusion. The last 1. and 2 are qualifications on replicas as I read it. Confusing at best.

431.3 Antique Firearm​

Antique firearm means any muzzle loading rifle/shotgun/pistol, which is designed to use black powder or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition (except those that incorporate a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof); or any firearm (including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured on or before 1898, or any replica thereof, if such replica:

  1. Is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition.
  2. Uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
 
Strange how laws/rules are written. One has to read the entire paragraph to understand what that paragraph says.
Not only an entire paragraph, but the entire statute section (in this case both paragraphs 431 and 432 apply). As we always said in insurance, read the entire policy because the large print giveth, but the fine print taketh away.
 
As we always said in insurance, read the entire policy because the large print giveth, but the fine print taketh away.


In construction the saying is RTFC. Or Read the Flippin Contract.

And of course you’re right. I’ll read through 432 tonight. Not sure I have it in me to read the whole statute and regulations associated with this though. I don’t ship guns modern or antique.
 
Well, transfer from NJ FFL to PA FFL is soon to occur.

Seems a bit ridiculous to require this when the revolver is 144 years old.

On the other hand, does this revolver still function properly? Because it functions properly, can it fire a round in the direction of an individual and prove fatal? Can it be easily concealed?

Yes to all of the aforementioned. I would imagine that’s New Jersey’s reasoning.
 

Gordon Van Gilder is a retired New Jersey school teacher and collector of 18th century memorabilia. That innocuous hobby could land the 72-year-old behind bars for the rest of his life.

Van Gilder owns an unloaded antique 225-year-old flintlock pistol, the possession of which carries a potential 10-year prison sentence and mandatory minimum sentence of three to five-and-a-half years with no chance for parole.

New Jersey has the worst gun regulation in the country.
 
As far as Bruen being a failure because some liberal states have enacted retaliatory legislation, I disagree. The OP seems to be upset with Bruen because NY, DC, and liberal states and courts are purposely misinterpreting and circumventing their ruling. That's not a fault of the ruling but rather those states and judges who choose to ignore it.

If I see any fault with SCOTUS and their Heller, Mcdonald, and Bruen decisions, it's not with the decisions itself, but rather their unwillingness to enforce it and make lower courts abide by it via large fines, emergency stays, and contempt of court. Any laws are effectively mooted without enforcement or repercussions for breaking them. The same is true for SCOTUS rulings.

There's that word again, unconstitutional. it gets thrown around in conversations like its Captain Americas shield. Until the last highest court says so, what we think doesn't matter. The thought keeps us revved up and in the fight, which is important but it’s only our opinion, not law.
I live under a state system that
doesn't take that in consideration at a high level when instituting firearms controls.
For over 50 years Ive had fingers waved in my face when I suggest that, just maybe,
alot of this legislation is not contrary to our
founding documents. My state Right to keep and bare arms is subject to police powers. Not a comforting addendum to a
God given “right”.


Gordon Van Gilder is a retired New Jersey school teacher and collector of 18th century memorabilia. That innocuous hobby could land the 72-year-old behind bars for the rest of his life.

Van Gilder owns an unloaded antique 225-year-old flintlock pistol, the possession of which carries a potential 10-year prison sentence and mandatory minimum sentence of three to five-and-a-half years with no chance for parole.

New Jersey has the worst gun regulation in the country.
charges were dropped 9 days later
 
Question:

If the New Jersey FFL ships to my Pennsylvania FFL, can I pick up this revolver from my Pennsylvania FFL WITHOUT completing the Form 4473? It is a Colt 1877 revolver manufactured in 1880.
 
In answer to your direct question I don't know. Here in Arizona if my FFL receives an antique firearm sent to him fron any source for transfer he will go through the 4473 and background check. He may be being overly cautious. But he believes that the sender is the deciding entity in determining if it needs to be transferred or not and he has will abide by that decision.

I can see a situation where in a trace, however unlikely, the issue of transfer of a firearm sent to him for transfer would come up. I realize that he could just not enter it into his log book because it is an antique. But if it was transferred out of one FFL's log book and the feds were tracing it, I suspect the feds would expect the receiving FFL to have transferred it through the 4473 and background check procedures. If that is how the law/regulations read I don't know.

I think the above is done out of an abundance of caution and avoids having the discussion with the feds. In cases like this where the FFL is protecting his license I don't argue the point. The old adage 'You can beat the rap but you can't beat the ride' might be in play. Rather then having the discussion on why you didn't transfer that antique that was logged out of one ffl log book to you for transfer, it would probably be easier to just have the final transfer documentation. And with the aggressive nature of inspections I would probably do the same.
 
That’s what I suspected. It’s the paper trail that’s important.

But it couldn’t hurt to ask. I didn’t know if it just was New Jersey law requiring transfer out by an FFL and what happened after that wasn’t their concern.

I’m all for states rights. But what New Jersey has done with regards to their gun laws is overbearing. How was it allowed to happen and what was the state legislature’s reasoning? While certainly not a conservative state, New Jersey doesn’t strike me as being an extremely liberal one, either. A prominent Republican governor not too long ago who is still regularly in the news, not as rampantly liberal as California, Connecticut, or Massachusetts, etc.
 
Air Guns are also considered firearms in N.J.
In New Jersey, the regulations regarding slingshots are as follows:

  1. Age Restriction: It is illegal for anyone under the age of 18 to own or possess a slingshot in New Jersey.
  2. Purchase and Sale: Slingshots are not classified as firearms or weapons in New Jersey, so there are no specific laws restricting their purchase or sale. Generally, they can be purchased without a permit or license.
However, it’s essential to note that according to New Jersey law, it is illegal to carry a slingshot for self-defense purposes. Slingshots are considered prohibited weapons under state law. So, while owning one is generally permissible, using it for self-defense is not.

On a lighter note, perhaps we should organize an East Coast slingshot tournament in New Jersey or a meet-up akin to what traditional archery enthusiasts do!
 
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