Shipping Firearms

[divemedic]

OK, so can we say that there is no requirement under CRIMINAL law for you to declare a firearm if shipping to an FFL?

Then, the other half is whether or not the carrier is obligated to compensate you for your loss in the event they lose a shipment, and it turns out that you didn't declare the contents to be a firearm.

I say that this is a different topic from the original question, as this fall squarely within CIVIL law. This becomes a contract dispute at this point.

 

[PILMAN]

http://www.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/story/10261990



Ex-Terp, former Bull Baxter pleads guilty to illegally shipping guns


July 19, 2007
CBS SportsLine.com wire reports


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GREENBELT, Md. -- Former Maryland basketball star Lonny Baxter pleaded guilty Thursday to illegally shipping guns through Federal Express, his second guilty plea in less than a year for gun-related offenses.
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The 28-year-old Baxter could receive probation or up to seven months in prison under a sentencing recommendation agreed to by his lawyer and federal prosecutors. Baxter, who is scheduled to be sentenced Aug. 31, also is barred from owning firearms in the future.

Last August, Baxter was arrested by the Secret Service for firing off a Glock handgun in the air near the White House. He pleaded guilty to gun charges and was sentenced to two months in prison.

Baxter admitted sending three handguns and a rifle from Houston to College Park using Federal Express in July 2006, according to a statement read in U.S. District Court. Federal law requires senders to inform shippers if a delivery contains firearms.

"I should think he would feel relieved to get this behind him," his attorney, Richard Finci, said after Thursday's hearing.

Baxter helped lead Maryland to the NCAA national title in 2002 and was selected in the second round of the NBA Draft by the Chicago Bulls later that year.

But he struggled as a professional, moving between several NBA teams before signing with the Italian team Montepaschi Siena last year as a forward. Siena won the Italian league championship earlier this year.
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The Associated Press News Service

 

[EOD Guy]

http://www.sportsline.com/collegebas...story/10261990



Ex-Terp, former Bull Baxter pleads guilty to illegally shipping guns

He was convicted of shipping to an unlicensed person withour declaring the contents of the package. Notification in that case is required by law.

It's shipment to a licensee where notification is not required.

 

[PILMAN]

Oh I see, didn't he violate federal law by shipping directly to a person instead of an FFL to begin with though?

 

[Liko81]

You can ship TO an FFL, however you cannot receive FROM an FFL through a courier unless you are an FFL yourself. Most manufacturers ask that in order to make the shipping process as painless as possible that you conduct the entire thing through an FFL. I've yet to find a dealer that, provided they didn't have to pay shipping/receiving costs, wouldn't act as a middleman for such a shipment.

Couriers can refuse to accept packages containing firearms for a number of reasons from liability (some bozo ships a loaded firearm and the UPS guy drops it the box resulting in an AD; who's liable?) to legality (Firearms transfer requires log entries in one or more bound books, and I believe that applies to couriers as well. Some just won't bother).

 

[curmudgeon and anarchist]

Depends on the local UPS.

My suggestion. Buy the box in advance and pack them yourself.

When you get to UPS, tell them you are sending sporting goods. They probably know what you are sending, but they don't care.

Send your guns overnight air. This is more expensive, but it is a more secure way to ship.

Also, gun companies will sometimes mail you a label, especially for warranty work. Call them and ask for one.

 

[curmudgeon and anarchist]

Depends on the local UPS.

My suggestion. Buy the box in advance and pack them yourself.

When you get to UPS, tell them you are sending sporting goods. They probably know what you are sending, but they don't care.

Send your guns overnight air. This is more expensive, but it is a more secure way to ship.

Also, gun companies will sometimes mail you a prepaid label, especially for warranty work. Call them and ask for one.

 

[1x2]

You can ship TO an FFL, however you cannot receive FROM an FFL through a courier unless you are an FFL yourself.

As a further clarification, you (or I, as non-FFL holders) can receive a firearm from a FFL holder "in return" that you already own, for instance, if you return it to a firearms manufacturer or gunsmith for service or repair, etc. Smith & Wesson, Colt, etc. do this constantly.

To wit (from the first page of this thread; UPS requires an adult signature at the receiving end, but I suppose there's no harm if they suspend their own rules occasionally):

I sent a a revolver back to Smith & Wesson for repair, It had to go next day air at the cost of $42.00, Smith & Wesson returned it to me UPS Ground and they left on my door step. Go Figure.

S&W is better insured than we are .
1x2

 

[American_Pit_Bull]

Originally posted by Tecumseh:
Apparently you did not read the letter sent out by the ATF. You have to declare that iti is a firearm. It is the law.

Why do so many people try to circumvent the law and give suggestions. If you dont like it change the law, and until it is changed follow it!!!

Originally posted by Tecumseh:
divemedic: So you came on here to find out the law? ANd then when you found out the law was something you did not like, you choose to ignore the law?

It seems that we have a simple reading comprehension problem here... And it is not that of divemedic.

 

[brickeyee]

"The key word is knowingly. I see no disclosure requirement there, either. So, this portion of the law doesn't seem to require disclosure, either."

You still don't get it.
The wording is so that the carrier cannot be prosecuted for the SHIPPERS failure.
There is NO WAY they can comply with the signature requirement without the SHIPPER declaring the package contents.

 

[1x2]

In the instant case, where divemedic is trying to send handguns to a FFL holder for service:

Neither the law nor the ATF letter reflecting the law require the contents to be "declared" ON THE BOX when shipping to a FFL holder. Both UPS AND FEDEX DO NOT WANT the box labeled as containing a firearm. Both require that the shipper inform the driver who picks up the shipment that the box contains a handgun (informing the driver is not required for a long gun).

BTW, where both carriers require "adult signature" at the receiving end, this is done without "declaring" the contents of the package. One simply checks the "adult signature" required box on the "request for shipment" shipping form.

1x2

From the UPS website:
Shipping Firearms
Special Procedures for Shipping Firearms
Use These UPS Services for Your Firearm Shipment
Firearms will be transported only between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors, as defined in the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, law enforcement agencies of the United States or of any department or agency thereof and law enforcement agencies of any state or department agency, or political subdivision thereof, and between persons not otherwise prohibited from shipping firearms by federal, state or local law and when such shipment complies with all applicable federal, state and local laws.

* You must ship your packages that contain handguns with UPS Next Day Air® Early A.M.®, UPS Next Day Air®, or UPS Next Day Air Saver® services
* Your packages that contain firearms will not be accepted for shipment at UPS Drop Boxes, with UPS Express CriticalSM service, at locations of The UPS Store® or any third-party retailer, or with international services.


Follow These Packing Requirements

* Your packages that contain handguns must be separated from other packages being delivered to UPS
* Ammunition cannot be included in your packages that contain firearms (including handguns)


About Documentation and Labeling

* When you are shipping your package that contains a firearm with UPS, you must affix a UPS label requesting an adult signature upon delivery


Getting Your Firearm Shipment to UPS

* You can only ship your package that contains a firearm from UPS daily pickup accounts and through UPS Customer Centers
* When you are shipping a package that contains a handgun, you must verbally notify the UPS driver or UPS Customer Center clerk
* You can use UPS daily pickup accounts to ship firearms, not including handguns, through UPS Internet Shipping, UPS On-Call PickupSM, and One-Time Pickup
* Your packages that contain firearms will not be accepted for shipment at UPS Drop Boxes, with UPS Express CriticalSM service, at locations of The UPS Store or any third-party retailer, or with international services
* See the terms and conditions in the UPS Tariff/Terms and Conditions of Service for shipping firearms

If you read the UPS Tariff/Terms and Conditions of Service, "Total Protection Services" and "Constant Surveillance Services" are delineated; however, there is not additional shipping information to be derived therefrom, in addition to what is italicized above, from their website.

BTW, if you call their 1-800-number, and persist to speak with a shipping specialist, they'll tell you what's printed above. UPS local employee stories may vary .

 

[American_Pit_Bull]

Neither the law nor the ATF letter reflecting the law require the contents to be "declared" ON THE BOX when shipping to a FFL holder.

By law, you do not have to declare the handgun to the shipper at all. Only by the shippers' policy, are you required to inform them.

 

[EOD Guy]

Neither the law nor the ATF letter reflecting the law require the contents to be "declared" ON THE BOX when shipping to a FFL holder.

By law, you do not have to declare the handgun to the shipper at all. Only by the shippers' policy, are you required to inform them.

Be careful! That only applies if you are shipping to a licensee. If you are shipping to a nonlicensee, notification is required.

 

[Soybomb]

Apparently you did not read the letter sent out by the ATF. You have to declare that iti is a firearm. It is the law.

Why do so many people try to circumvent the law and give suggestions. If you dont like it change the law, and until it is changed follow it!!!

Tecumseh I do believe you need to read the letter again. He is shipping his handguns to the sigarms factory, a ffl. He has no legal obligation to notify them of the contents of the box since its going to a ffl.

 

[1x2]

By law, you do not have to declare the handgun to the shipper at all. Only by the shippers' policy, are you required to inform them.

Just right

If you are shipping to a nonlicensee, notification is required.

Hmmm- is this possible? How would a non-FFL holder come into possession of a handgun that belongs to the non-FFL holder being shipped to?

It seems clear that this is not an issue for shipper/FFL holders, but a non-FFL holder can't ship to a non-FFL holder a handgun that does not belong to the shippee/recipient- at least interstate- that has to be transferred via a FFL holder. No?

1x2

 

[Larenegade]

What a subject to follow all the different opinions and the law. Just adding a experience I had here and something to keep in mind.

I have shipped thru UPS, Fed Ex and USPS and never had a problem except with UPS.

I had returned a Sig P2340 for factory repair and was hospitalized while it was at Sig. On the day I was having surgery out of state the pistol was returned to my residence without my knowledge. I had notified Sig to send the pistol to a licensed dealer due to being out of state and they were to keep it until my return. That didn't happen. UPS left the pistol on the 18th at my residence and the driver, I later found out, had signed my name on the shipping receipt saying I had accepted the weapon. Being in surgery out of state that was not possible of course. The driver left the weapon outside at the front door of my residence. Of coarse the box clearly stated it was from Sig and that it contained a firearm. Unbelieveably the gun was still there 10 days later when someone I sent to check my residence found it. The yard workers were honest is all I can say. I was lucky.

I recommend that anyone shipping follow up with the tracing information and track the package to and from the company. I was lucky and yes it was insured but the chances are to great that you might have a problem. Don't sit and wait for your package. Know where it is all the time. Most gun manufactures will notify you if requested, that the work is finished and it is being shipped for you to follow and know the tracking information. Get to know your driver if possible. Keep in touch with the place you shipped to and ask them to notify you upon returning the weapon. I have hade UPS leave guns outside and never knock and I later find the box soaking wet from rain, containing two high grade O/U shotguns, leave someone else's package is a common mistake also. I will never use UPS again. I have been told by attendents for UPS the cost to ship a pistol for warranty work was going to be $40+ dollars. Because it was a firearm it cost more she said. Then I go to another UPS station and ship the same package for $16 dollars overnight. Different empolyee different story. If I hadn't shipped prior and didn't know the cost, I would probably have paid them the $40+ bucks for nothing. I have never had a problem once with FED EX. I still track each time to try to eliminate any human error I can though. Hope this helps someone.

 

[Soybomb]

It seems clear that this is not an issue for shipper/FFL holders, but a non-FFL holder can't ship to a non-FFL holder a handgun that does not belong to the shippee/recipient- at least interstate- that has to be transferred via a FFL holder. No?

C&R FFL holders can receive handguns interstate but I don't believe the 03 ffl is excemp from the notification like the others. Most states still allow you to send guns intrastate to other non dealers too without a ffl I believe.

 

[EOD Guy]

There are many exceptions to the regulations that allow shipments of firearms to nonlicensees. Some examples are returns to the owner from repair or modification, shipments to and between law enforcement agencies, bequests from an estate, shipments to military officers for official use, shipments from the CMP, and several others.

Shipments of those types would require notification to the shipper.

 

[American_Pit_Bull]

It seems clear that this is not an issue for shipper/FFL holders, but a non-FFL holder can't ship to a non-FFL holder a handgun that does not belong to the shippee/recipient- at least interstate- that has to be transferred via a FFL holder. No?

That is true... I could not ship interstate, but I could complete a transaction, with a resident of my own state, and ship directly to him. FedEx will not allow this, but UPS only states that you have to follow all applicable laws and it is legal to ship to a non-ffl in states that allow private transfers without the involvement of an FFL.