shipping a firearm

[Monkeybear]

First off let me say; I hope that I am posting this in the right place.

I am shipping my first gun soon, and as such I have been reading heavily about it. Often in threads, even here on this board, I have come across the someone saying something along the lines of

"You don't have to tell them its a gun, its just a FedEx/UPS policy"

or

"Just don't tell them"

A lot of my reading on the forums about shipping firearms via Fedex/UPS has left me with the notion that I am not legally obligated to inform the carrier verbally that I am shipping a firearm. I have found evidence that this is not the case

Item B8 states

"A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm."


Regardless of whether or not we agree we are legally in the wrong if we do not inform the carrier that the contents of our parcel is a firearm. I would hate for someone to get themselves into trouble if they, as I, were to get the wrong idea from reading any number of firearm shipping threads in the forums. I would also like to be corrected if wrong.

Thanks,

Monkeybear

 

[Hkmp5sd]

§ 922 Unlawful acts.

(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter.

No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, orother container contains a firearm.

§ 478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.

(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped:

http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2005/p53004/index.htm

 

[P97]

My question is what is a Firearm? I realize a firearm is a fully functional gun, but if a part is missing that keeps it from firing, would it then be same as shipping parts?

 

[nalioth]

My question is what is a Firearm? I realize a firearm is a fully functional gun, but if a part is missing that keeps it from firing, would it then be same as shipping parts?

In the USA, the receiver is considered "the firearm".

 

[waterhouse]

As has been posted many times, you are quoting an ATF FAQ, which has no legal standing. It gets posted all the time, and I'm not sure why the ATF still has it up on their website. That one statement on their FAQ seems to be the basis of more confusion than just about anything.

HKMP5sd posted the text of the law. As long as you are shipping to an FFL, you don't have to tell anyone.

 

[waterhouse]

Found the letter on my hard drive:

 

[Monkeybear]

Ahh

In that case I stand happily corrected. I was thinking that there was a difference between the written notification not required and the verbal notification implied but I guess I was just over thinking.

Thanks!

 

[hotwheelz]

So Maybe Im a little short on gray matter here
I just sold a revolver to a guy on another forum he is an ffl holder.
your saying I can just ship it to his ffl address by either ups, or fedex?



This is the first gun I have sold that wasnt ftf so I just want to make sure IM doing it right. The guy I use for ffl transfers will ship it for me but $50 { transfer and shipping} but I think I could ship it for under $20 myself.


Sorry if to dumb things down here I just wanted to make it simple

 

[Car Knocker]

but I think I could ship it for under $20 myself.

Not using the overnight shipping Fed-ex or UPS requires.

 

[brickeyee]

Beofre you look at small sections of CFR, you might want to look at the entire applicable section

TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS, AND FIREARMS

CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

PART 478_COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION--Table of Contents

Subpart C_Administrative and Miscellaneous Provisions

Sec. 478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.

(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to
any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in
interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed
importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector,
any package or other container in which there is any firearm or
ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or
ammunition is being transported or shipped: Provided, That any passenger
who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported
aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in
interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition
into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such
common or contract carrier for the duration of that trip without
violating any provision of this part.
(b) No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label,
tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package,
luggage, or other container indicating that such package, luggage, or
other container contains a firearm.
(c) No common or contract carrier shall transport or deliver in
interstate or foreign commerce any firearm or ammunition with knowledge
or reasonable cause to believe that the shipment, transportation, or
receipt thereof would be in violation of any provision of this part:
Provided, however, That the provisions of this paragraph shall not apply
in respect to the transportation of firearms or ammunition in in-bond
shipment under Customs laws and regulations.
(d) No common or contract carrier shall knowingly deliver in
interstate or foreign commerce any firearm without obtaining written
acknowledgement of receipt from the recipient of the package or other
container in which there is a firearm: Provided, That this paragraph
shall not apply with respect to the return of a firearm to a passenger
who places firearms in the carrier's custody for the duration of the
trip.


Section (d) seems to get missed a whole lot.
While it allows the carrier to escape prosecution ("No common or contract carrier shall knowingly deliver") it requires the shipper to inform the carrier so that they can comply.

You might read (c) also.

 

[eastwood44mag]

So, if I understand this correctly, as a C&R holder, ELIGIBLE firearms and ammo can be shipped to me without any declaration to the carrier, unless the carrier demands it.

Is that correct?

 

[wally]

I am shipping my first gun soon, and as such I have been reading heavily about it.

Not being a Philadelphia Gun Lawyer I can only relate my last experience. FedEx & UPS requires overnight (expensive $40+) shipping on guns. I've always told them it was a an gun and got charged the high rate. But last time, I went to the same FedEx place I've always used, but it was ~2:30PM on a Friday afternnoon. The guy in line ahead of me was bitching that they couldn't gaurantee overnight to Dallas since he'd missed the deadline.

My turn came, told them I was returning a gun for repair, filled out the label and they asked if it was loaded, I said Hell NO, she said I have to ask. She weighed it and charged me $12.45! Either she was unaware of their policy or they can't enforce it when they can't deliver overnight!

So try showing up on a Friday after the overnight deadline. Can't hurt.

FYI the repaired gun was returned to me exactly 7 days (the following Friday morning at 10AM by UPS) so it sure didn't slow anything down! Kudos to EAA for a super fast turn-around replacing my cracked slide.

--wally.

 

[Blackfork]

One thing is for certain...

We certainly don't suffer from too few laws and regulations when it comes to shipping a piece of machined metal across the country.

Once, this was a free country.

 

[CoRoMo]

Does this apply to shipments inside the same state? Can I ship a gun to my brother down the road? Without the FFL transfer, notification to shipper, etc.?

 

[EOD Guy]

Section (d) seems to get missed a whole lot.
While it allows the carrier to escape prosecution ("No common or contract carrier shall knowingly deliver") it requires the shipper to inform the carrier so that they can comply.

No, it doesn't and the people who wrote the regulation agree that notification is not required when shipping to an FFL.

I would like to add one thing. What is legal is not always prudent. Not notifying the carrier is a violation of their policies and might make it more difficult to pursue any possible insurance claims with them. For that reason, I would not advise anyone not to notify the carrier just to save a few bucks.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Does this apply to shipments inside the same state? Can I ship a gun to my brother down the road? Without the FFL transfer, notification to shipper, etc.?

You can ship it to a non-FFL in your state (unless prohibited by state law), but you must inform the shipper it is a firearm if you are not shipping to a FFL.

 

[waterhouse]

(d) No common or contract carrier shall knowingly deliver in
interstate or foreign commerce any firearm without obtaining written
acknowledgment of receipt from the recipient of the package or other
container in which there is a firearm: Provided, That this paragraph
shall not apply with respect to the return of a firearm to a passenger
who places firearms in the carrier's custody for the duration of the
trip.


Section (d) seems to get missed a whole lot.
While it allows the carrier to escape prosecution ("No common or contract carrier shall knowingly deliver") it requires the shipper to inform the carrier so that they can comply.

No, it requires the shipper to use some form of "Signature Required" delivery. That way the recipient gives a the shipping company a written acknowledgment of receipt. You still don't have to say what you are shipping.

 

[brickeyee]

If you do not inform the shipping agent that the package is a firearm they cannot comply with (d).

 

[EOD Guy]

If you do not inform the shipping agent that the package is a firearm they cannot comply with (d).

That's correct and why the regulation says knowingly. The shipper should require an adult signature.

If (d) bothers you, use the Postal Service. They are not a common or contract carrier.

The fact remains that the regulatory agency says that notification is not legally required when shipping to a licensee.

 

[Mojo-jo-jo]

EOD GUY:

No dice. You can't ship a handgun via USPS unless you are a FFL. Rifle, yes, but only to a resident of the same state or FFL, and you will have to declare and show unloaded (source).
Straight from the ATF FAQ: http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b7

(B7) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?

A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]

I don't believe the OP said whether it was a handgun or a rifle. If it is a rifle, you can ship USPS. Handgun, you must be a FFL.

I have shipped and received firearms often as both a C&R FFL and as an unlicensed individual. If you don't have an FFL, you (basically) have to use UPS or Fedex. From my experience:

Fedex/UPS: Recipient MUST be an FFL (company policy). You must declare it (federal law). You MUST ship overnight (company policy).
FEDEX: VERY expensive.
UPS: You can use "Next Day Air Saver" which is less expensive.

DHL does not ship firearms period.

USPS: Anybody can ship a rifle to an individual that is a resident of your state or to an out-of-state FFL, but must declare and show that it is unloaded (source). You can ship handgun ONLY IF YOU HAVE AN FFL. Must file USPS form 1508.

BTW, you can legally ship a firearm to yourself, but no carriers will do it. UPS/Fedex both require that either the sender or recipient is an FFL. I tried to do this once, as I was out of town for work in Oklahoma and got a change in orders to go to Illinois. Gun + Illinois + no FOID card = jail. Fortunately, I had a copy of my C&R with me (keep copy in wallet-never know when you will find a deal in a pawn shop somewhere) and managed to get UPS to ship it to my home address. They made it clear that they would NOT ship it to a residential address without the license.

 

[EOD Guy]

No dice. You can't ship a handgun via USPS unless you are a FFL. Rifle, yes, but only to a resident of the same state or FFL, and you will have to declare and show unloaded (source).

Fedex/UPS: Recipient MUST be an FFL (company policy). You must declare it (federal law). You MUST ship overnight (company policy).

The UPS tariff allows any shipment to any person as long as the shipment is legal under GCA 68. Now getting a UPS clerk to read their own tariff might be a problem.

I know for a fact that FedEx will ship to an unlicensed person. CMP does it every day. They do that under contract with the CMP and I don't know if they will do so for someone off the street.

Yes, you must declare the firearm, but it is company police, not Federal law, unless you are shipping to an unlicensed person.

I realize that only dealers and/or manufacturers can mail handguns, but again, there is nothing requiring notification in any case with the USPS, nor does the shipment have to be to an FFL. It only has to be legal under the Gun Control Act. The section on showing unloaded (or certifying so) is optional and not required by the regulations. It says that the clerk MAY inspect the firearm to see if it is loaded. Personally, I always use a written certification so that package doesn't have to be opened.

Believe it or not, there is a standard used by the Federal Government when writing regulations. For instance the words "shall" or "will" indicate a mandatory action. The word "should" indicates a recommendation, not a mandatory action. The word "may" indicates an action that is allowed but not dictated.

 

[Mojo-jo-jo]

The UPS tariff allows any shipment to any person as long as the shipment is legal under GCA 68. Now getting a UPS clerk to read their own tariff might be a problem.

The key is "legal under GCA 68." As a non-liecnsee, you can't ship a firearm to a non-licensee out of state. Only to a FFL. A non-licensee shipping to a non-licensee across state lines would be an unlawful transfer under GCA. As a non-licensee you can ship to a non-licensee within the same state. I don't know if UPS will do that or not. They have told me that they will not ship from a non-licensee to a residential address. This is UPS policy, not federal law.

I know for a fact that FedEx will ship to an unlicensed person. CMP does it every day. They do that under contract with the CMP and I don't know if they will do so for someone off the street.

CMP is a special case. It was chartered by Congress, and in the charter it states that they may ship to non-licensees directly. They have effectively been exempted to that section of the GCA by an act of congress. Since the CMP is essentially an FFL (I would assume they are, in fact licensed), this satisfies Fedex's requirement that at least one side be a licensee.

Fedex will ship a firearm, but just like UPS, at least one side must be a licensee (company policy). Again, if a non-licensee is shipping to another non-licensee across state lines, it is a violation of the GCA 68.

Yes, you must declare the firearm, but it is company police, not Federal law, unless you are shipping to an unlicensed person.

Partially correct. FFL's can ship to other FFL's without declaration. However, company policy dictates that it must be declared. If a FFL doesn't declare, he is not violating the law, but will lose insurance coverage due to the noncompliance with policy if it is lost/damaged/stolen. A non-licensee must declare the firearm under all circumstances. This IS federal law, cited by many posts above.

I realize that only dealers and/or manufacturers can mail handguns, but again, there is nothing requiring notification in any case with the USPS, nor does the shipment have to be to an FFL.

Incorrect.
"Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person - are nonmailable UNLESS mailed by a licensed manufacturer of firearms, or a licensed dealer of firearms, or an authorized agent of the federal government or government of a state, territory, or district, and ONLY when addressed to a person in one of the following categories for use in the person's official duties AND upon filing the required affidavit or certificate, as applicable." (source) The "following categories" enumerate FFL's, law enforcement, military, government agencies, postal inspectors, etc. You can not mail a handgun to a nonlicensee, other than the aforementioned exemptions for LE, Gov't, etc. See Exhibit 432.1 at the previous link. Furthermore, it must be declared on a form 1508: "PS Form 1508, Statement by Shipper of Firearms, must be completed by each firearm manufacturer or dealer who deposits firearms for mailing. The form must be filed with the postmaster of the post office of mailing." On the form, you must affirm that "To the best of my knowledge and belief, the addresses are manufacturers of firearms or bona fide dealers therein."

As before stated, a non-licensee CAN mail a long gun to a non-licensee within the same state, or to an out-of-state FFL. A transfer to a non-licensee across state lines would be in violation of GCA 68.

 

[waterhouse]

If you do not inform the shipping agent that the package is a firearm they cannot comply with (d).

Yes, they can. Section D states that the shipping agent cannot knowingly deliver a firearm without obtaining written acknowledgment of receipt from the recipient of the package.

That's it: written acknowledgment of receipt of the package. When a person signs for any package, firearm or not, they are giving a written acknowledgment that they received the package.

If you require an adult signature when you ship the firearm, the shipping agent will receive a written acknowledgment of receipt of the package, and therefore is abiding by section D, without having to know that the package contains a firearm.

 

[Car Knocker]

A C&R FFL is not sufficient to legally ship a handgun through USPS.

 

[EOD Guy]

Quote:
I realize that only dealers and/or manufacturers can mail handguns, but again, there is nothing requiring notification in any case with the USPS, nor does the shipment have to be to an FFL.
Incorrect.
"Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person - are nonmailable UNLESS mailed by a licensed manufacturer of firearms, or a licensed dealer of firearms, or an authorized agent of the federal government or government of a state, territory, or district, and ONLY when addressed to a person in one of the following categories for use in the person's official duties AND upon filing the required affidavit or certificate, as applicable." (source) The "following categories" enumerate FFL's, law enforcement, military, government agencies, postal inspectors, etc. You can not mail a handgun to a nonlicensee, other than the aforementioned exemptions for LE, Gov't, etc. See Exhibit 432.1 at the previous link. Furthermore, it must be declared on a form 1508: "PS Form 1508, Statement by Shipper of Firearms, must be completed by each firearm manufacturer or dealer who deposits firearms for mailing. The form must be filed with the postmaster of the post office of mailing." On the form, you must affirm that "To the best of my knowledge and belief, the addresses are manufacturers of firearms or bona fide dealers therein."

You got me on that one. I forgot about the Form 1508 for handguns.