Shipping guns to myself?

[flphotog]

Not looking for legal advice and not planning on shipping any guns, just want to clarify to myself a conversation I heard in an LGS this morning.

Here is the situation:
Man who is a current resident of FL wanting to receive 2 handguns as a gift from his son who is a current resident of NV.
He was told that his son could not ship them to him which is the only thing that I heard that I agree with, the following is the part that I question. He was told that if he went to NV he could ship them to himself in FL.
Does anyone know if that part is true?? I question this as he is not a resident of NV but of FL??

 

[George P]

No, the transfer has to take place in his state of residence. They still need to go through a FL FFL.

 

[Hunter86004]

I would tend to disagree with what he was told about receiving the handguns in NV and shipping them to himself. His son can ship them to a dealer in Fl, but not to dad, as since there is a change in ownership, not by a bequest, they have to go to a dealer on the receiving end.

In this situation, son is going to have to ship them, which he does not need a dealer for, even if dad goes to NV, and they need to be shipped to a dealer in FL.

 

[flphotog]

Thanks, that's what I was thinking.

 

[Frank Ettin]

....Man who is a current resident of FL wanting to receive 2 handguns as a gift from his son who is a current resident of NV.
He was told that his son could not ship them to him which is the only thing that I heard that I agree with, the following is the part that I question. He was told that if he went to NV he could ship them to himself in FL....

Oh geez! What horribly garbled information that fellow was spouting. I suggest that if he ever tells you the time, don't believe him even if he's looking at his watch.

...Does anyone know if that part is true?? I question this as he is not a resident of NV but of FL??

It's only half true -- the part about the son not being able to ship the guns to his father who is a resident of another State.

But the second part, about the father going to visit his son, take possession of the guns from his son, and then ship them to himself, is not true. If the father, as a resident of Florida, takes possession of the guns from his son, a resident of Nevada, in Nevada, both father and son have violated federal law and become eligible for up to five years in federal prison (with the bonus of a lifetime loss of gun rights).

This has been posted before, but let's take another look at federal law on transfers of a gun from a resident of one State to a resident of another:

1. Under federal law, any transfer of a gun (with a few, narrow exceptions, e. g., by bequest under a will) from a resident of one State to a resident of another must be through an FFL. And a handgun must be transferred through an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. The transfer must comply with all the requirements of the State in which the transfer is being done as well as all federal formalities (e. g., completion of a 4473, etc.). There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.
   
   
2. In the case of handguns, it must be an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. You may obtain a handgun in a State other than your State of residence, BUT it must be shipped by the transferor to an FFL in your State of residence to transfer the handgun to you.
   
   
3. In the case of long guns, it may be any FFL as long as (1) the long gun is legal in the transferee's State of residence; and (2) the transfer complies with the laws of the State in which it takes place; and (3) the transfer complies with the law of the transferee's State of residence. In connection with the transfer of a long gun, some FFLs will not want to handle the transfer to a resident of another State, because they may be uncertain about the laws of that State. And if the transferee resides in some States (e. g., California), the laws of the State may be such that an out-of-state FFL will not be able to conduct a transfer that complies.
   
   
4. There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.
   
   
5. The relevant federal laws may be found at: 18 USC 922(a)(3); 18 USC 922(a)(5); and 18 USC 922(b)(3).
   
   
6. Here's what the statutes say:
   

   18 U.S.C. 922. Unlawful acts
   
   (a) It shall be unlawful—
   ...
   
   (3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph
   
   
   

   (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,
   
   (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and
   
   (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;​

   
   ...
   
   (5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
   
   
   

   (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and
   
   (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;​

   
   ....
   
   (b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver --
   ...
   
   (3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph
   
   
   

   (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and
   
   (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;​

   
   ...

   
   
7. Violation of these federal laws is punishable by up to five years in federal prison and/or a fine. It also results in a lifetime loss of gun rights.

(Note: While one may lawfully ship a gun to himself, the advice give to the OP's friend by the unnamed stranger is problematic for two reasons. First, the father taking possession in Nevada of the guns from his son so that the father can ship them to himself involves the son unlawfully under federal transferring the guns to his father, and the father then receiving guns in his State of resident, which guns he obtained in another State (violating 18 USC 922(a)(3). Second, neither UPS nor FedEx will accept a gun from in individual for shipment to anyone who is not an FFL; and handguns may not be shipped by USPS by a non-FFL.)

....His son can ship them to a dealer in Fl, but not to dad, as since there is a change in ownership, not by a bequest, they have to go to a dealer on the receiving end.....

Note that the federal law discussed above applies to transfer of possession, not just ownership.

 

[aarondhgraham]

It's my understanding that you can ship guns to yourself,,,
But only under certain circumstances.

I live in State A and want to attend a SASS match in State B,,,
I can ship the guns to myself as there is no change in ownership.

Am I mistaken on this?

Aarond

.

 

[Frank Ettin]

It's my understanding that you can ship guns to yourself,,,
But only under certain circumstances.

I live in State A and want to attend a SASS match in State B,,,
I can ship the guns to myself as there is no change in ownership.

Am I mistaken on this?...

Looking at the OP's question:

1. The issue isn't so much the father shipping the guns to himself. The problem is that in order to ship the guns to himself he takes possession of the guns in violation of federal law in a State that's not his State of residence.
   
   
2. Neither FedEx nor UPS will accept a gun for shipment from an individual unless the gun is being shipped to an FFL. So while one might be legally able to ship a handgun to himself, the two major carriers won't do it.

 

[aarondhgraham]

Thanks Frank.

Aarond

.

 

[George P]

Neither FedEx nor UPS will accept a gun for shipment from an individual unless the gun is being shipped to an FFL. So while one might be legally able to ship a handgun to himself, the two major carriers won't do it.

And USPS won't ship handguns from a non-FFL

I live in State A and want to attend a SASS match in State B,,,
I can ship the guns to myself as there is no change in ownership.

You ship them to yourself in care of where you are staying, and only you can open the package.

 

[Stubert]

I talked to my local UPS hub and was told that ,yes they will ship a handgun to yourself. It must go next day air and the cost was quoted to me at aprox. $70.00 each way.

 

[Jim Watson]

Wow, I had not heard of that, even though it is legal. Around here, I can barely get a hysterical shipping clerk to send a gun to a FFL.

 

[George P]

I talked to my local UPS hub and was told that ,yes they will ship a handgun to yourself. It must go next day air and the cost was quoted to me at aprox. $70.00 each way.

But if you are already flying to some location, why not just pack the guns in your luggage?

 

[dogtown tom]

I talked to my local UPS hub and was told that ,yes they will ship a handgun to yourself. It must go next day air and the cost was quoted to me at aprox. $70.00 each way.

Read the UPS tariff. It clearly says who they will deliver a firearm to and you are not one of them.
No UPS counter clerk can alter or amend that tariff...….meaning if your package is lost, stolen, damaged you will get ZERO on a claim for damages.

 

[dogtown tom]

And USPS won't ship handguns from a non-FFL



You ship them to yourself in care of where you are staying, and only you can open the package.

True, for rifles or shotguns via USPS.
False for handguns.....as noted several times in this thread what is legal under the law may violate the carriers policies.

 

[bearcreek]

True, for rifles or shotguns via USPS.
False for handguns.....as noted several times in this thread what is legal under the law may violate the carriers policies.

I'm trying to find where UPS says that. I found this, https://www.ups.com/us/en/help-center/packaging-and-supplies/special-care-shipments/firearms.page which seems to indicate that they won't ship from individual to individual, even if it's the same person. What am I missing?

 

[dogtown tom]

I'm trying to find where UPS says that.
I found this, https://www.ups.com/us/en/help-center/packaging-and-supplies/special-care-shipments/firearms.page which seems to indicate that they won't ship from individual to individual, even if it's the same person. What am I missing?

You linked to UPS, USPS is the US Postal Service.....different rules.

 

[bearcreek]

You linked to UPS, USPS is the US Postal Service.....different rules.

I know. I meant the part about violating the carriers policies. I see nothing in the UPS policy that differentiates between handguns and long guns, other than that handguns must be shipped Next Day Air.

 

[dogtown tom]

I know. I meant the part about violating the carriers policies. I see nothing in the UPS policy that differentiates between handguns and long guns, other than that handguns must be shipped Next Day Air.

Handguns can be shipped via USPS only by licensed dealers/manufacturers to another licensed dealer/manufacturer.
Rifles and shotguns can be shipped interstate via USPS from a nonlicensee to a licensee in another state.
Rifles and shotguns can be shipped intrastate via USPS from nonlicensee to nonlicensee.
Rifles and shotguns can be shipped interstate by you via USPS, addressed to yourself in another state.

My comment about violating the carriers policies was in response to GeorgeP:

I live in State A and want to attend a SASS match in State B,,,
I can ship the guns to myself as there is no change in ownership.

GeorgeP: You ship them to yourself in care of where you are staying, and only you can open the package.

Again, shipping ANY firearm by yourself to yourself via UPS/FedEx violates their tariff...…..and you even linked to it above.

UPS and FedEx require that either the shipper or receiver hold an FFL:

Special Procedures for Shipping Firearms
UPS accepts packages containing firearms (as defined by Title 18, Chapter 44, and Title 26, Chapter 53 of the United States Code) for transportation only (a) between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors (as defined in Title 18, Chapter 44 of the United States Code), and government agencies and (b) where not otherwise prohibited by federal, state or local law (i) from an individual to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector; and (ii) from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to an individual.

So, my response to GeorgeP:

True, for rifles or shotguns via USPS.
False for handguns.....as noted several times in this thread what is legal under the law may violate the carriers policies.

That's because USPS doesn't prohibit shipping rifles and shotguns TO YOURSELF in another state. UPS & FedEx do. It's legal, but violates their tariffs.



If only there was a sticky on shipping firearms.

 

[CapnMac]

But if you are already flying to some location, why not just pack the guns in your luggage?

Because the Father, a FL resident still can't take possession of handguns in NV in the first place. So, can't just fly them home.

The law, as Frank points out says you have to take possession of handguns within your state of residence.

Now, and FFL in NV can mail them USPS (relatively inexpensively) to a FL FFL, at which point dad can legally collect.