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Shockwave and Similar “Firearms” with Brace and Grips

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by giggitygiggity, Mar 24, 2020.

  1. giggitygiggity

    giggitygiggity Member

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    I’ve seen a number of photos of Shockwaves and similar firearms that people buy and then add braces and/or pistol grips to them under the assumption that the firearms are still legal and not under subject to tax/registration under the NFA. Can you legally add a brace and/or pistol grip to these firearms without creating an NFA item (SBS or AOW)?
     
  2. TonyAngel

    TonyAngel Member

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    Let me try to get this straight in my head. Ok, if it is over 26” in overall length and the barrel is at least 16” long it is a rifle and a receiver built as such is registered/recorded as a rifle by the manufacturer. If you put a pistol brace on it, it is still a rifle. If you put a pistol brace and a barrel shorter than 16” on a rifle, that’s turning a rifle into a pistol or bar and that’s a no-no.
     
  3. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    NFA law is ridiculous and complicated. As of right now, a pistol brace on a Shockwave is legal under ATF interpretations. Plenty of places sell them.

    https://www.brownells.com/shotgun-p...4-shockwave-stabilizing-brace-prod114415.aspx

    The ATF has not issued a determining letter I can find specifically related to Shockwave/Tac-14 braces. Arm braces in general are not "designed" to be shouldered. As such, shouldering a stabilizing brace does not redefine the weapon as a NFA item. This is a 3 page ATF letter outlining the legal differences between brace and stock.

    https://www.gggaz.com/pdf/doc03305220190516153514.pdf
     
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  4. nipprdog

    nipprdog Member

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    Shockwaves have 14" barrels.
     
  5. TonyAngel

    TonyAngel Member

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    I think he’s talking about the brace when he refers to a shockwave. Those weapons so equipped often have much shorter barrels. When it gets here, I’ll have a 10.5.
     
  6. 12Bravo20

    12Bravo20 Member

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    The reasons that the Shockwave and Tac14 and similar are legal are:
    Made from virgin receivers that never had a shoulder stock - not a shotgun by legal definition
    Overall length of just over 26" - not a smoothbore pistol by legal definition.
    They are legally classified as a "firearm" commonly referred to as other on the 4473

    With that said:
    Put a stock on one and it is now a short barreled shotgun subject to NFA
    Change the birds head grip for a pistol grip and the length goes to under 26" and it is now an "any other weapon" subject to NFA

    ON braces: (based on several opinion letters from the ATF- no standards actually set)
    They are counted as overall length if the buffer tube does not fold and is necessary for proper function of the firearm
    They are not counted for overall length on firearms that do NOT require the buffer tube to function (considered an accessory)

    I'm sure that Mossberg and Remington along with brace adaptor manufacturers did get opinion letters for adding a brace to these firearms.
     
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  7. entropy

    entropy Member

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    GG&G makes a brace that goes on the Tac-13, and yes, they did get an opinion letter on it, as has SB for the SBa3 brace.
    Not sure I would want to fire an 870 or Mossberg with a brace on.

    https://www.gggaz.com/remington-tac-13-stabilizing-brace-kit.html
     
  8. rodinal220

    rodinal220 Member

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    Seeing as how Remington sells one from the factory so equipped, I would say so. Until BATFE changes its mind, or we win the ultimate objective and eradicate the NFA, why not accept these new types of firearms and stop questioning their existence??? Why cater to the enemy's whims???

    https://www.remington.com/other-products/model-870-tac-14-arm-brace
     
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  9. TheWarhammer

    TheWarhammer Member

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    As with anything the ATF has or doesn't yet have any opinion on, all "determinations" are mutable, and subject to change, whim, and fancy. As of right now, a brace on your Shockwave is legal, tomorrow... who knows.

    Make hay while the sun shines!

    49570280268_7cf2fff153_c.jpg
     
  10. DocRock

    DocRock Member

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    And aren't rifles.
     
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  11. 12Bravo20

    12Bravo20 Member

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    The federal laws are very confusing at times.

    A rifle with a barrel less than 16" long is a SBR. Rifles are designed to be fired using a stock against the shooters shoulder.

    A firearm that was made from a virgin receiver is classified as either a pistol or "firearm" depending on how it is configured. A pistol or "firearm" is not intended to be fired from the shoulder.
    Perfect example is the AR pistol: it can have any length of barrel but absolutely no stock.
    If your pistol is at least 26" in overall length and you put a 90 degree forward grip on it, the pistol is now a "firearm". Having a barrel under 26" with forward grip = AOW.

    Also very important - any weapon classified as a "firearm" instantly becomes an AOW when concealed. So do NOT conceal or Shockwave or Tac13/14 or similar firearm!

    Braces are classified as arm braces and cannot be modified from original design. The ATF did say that occasional/accidental use of a brace is OKAY. Installing a brace with the intentions of using it as a stock to get around the NFA laws is NOT okay. Of course the ATF opinion can change again at any time.

    Have I totally confused everyone yet?
     
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  12. DocRock

    DocRock Member

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    A firearm with a smoothbore, regardless of length, stock, receiver, grip, or anything else, cannot be a rifle. Everything else is confusing ;-)
     
  13. 12Bravo20

    12Bravo20 Member

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    Absolutely correct. A smoothbore fall into two NON NFA categories: shotgun or firearm. Now either example can be turned into a SBS or an AOW with proper paperwork/tax.

    There was a lengthy discussion or two on another forum on if it was legal to change the smoothbore firearms into shotguns and back. Some thing that you can just like an AR pistol (pistol to rifle back to pistol)
    It was argued that you can and also that you can NOT do that due to the legal definitions of a shotgun versus a smoothbore firearm. I personally will err on the side of caution and leave my Shockwave as a "firearm". This part really should be discussed in the NFA forum though.
     
  14. Bill460

    Bill460 Member

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    This entire mess has come about by the ATF becoming a victim of their own damn creation. For literally decades any shotgun, and I mean ANY SHOTGUN with a barrel less than 16" long would land you in prison on Federal gun charges..... And now, all of a sudden they come up with this whole "overall length" business. That supposedly has always been, "on the books"..... But no one has ever heard of. Or taken advantage of..... Until now.

    For literally decades, putting a rifle stock on a rifled barreled weapon with a barrel length under 16", would land you in prison on the same Federal gun charges..... And now all of a sudden you have all of these idiotic "braces", that are attached to, "AR-15 Pistols".... That no one is using for a wrist brace as they were supposedly designed.

    They all look like shoulder stocks. They all act like shoulder stocks. And EVERYBODY who owns one USES it as a shoulder stock....... Which the ATF say's you're not supposed to do. However if you do, they will, "sort of look the other way", and not arrest you if the gun was originally built and tagged as a "pistol".... Which in itself is ridiculous.

    It's easier to figure out the tax codes from the IRS, than it is to try and sort out this complete cluster-"F". It has now gotten to the point if they were to make any changes in this entire mess, no one would be able to sort it out, and understand what's legal, and what isn't. There are simply too many cracks to fall into.

    I would advise ANYONE who wants one of these things, (14" barreled "firearm", "shotgun", "AOW"), or whatever you want to tag it with, to buy it from the factory, (Remington / Mossberg), and LEAVE IT THE WAY IT CAME FROM THE BOX. Do not alter it, add anything, or change anything. Because if you do, you could very well find yourself sailing into uncharted legal territory, that would require Clarence Darrow to return from the dead, in order to sort out.

    Now you can call me paranoid. And maybe I am a little. Or even more than just a little. But there is something about the term, "Federal prison sentence" that just scares the living hell out of me. And remember, any and all of these Federal 3 letter agencies, (ATF, IRS, FBI, DEA), have the power of God, and can destroy your life with the stroke of a pen. And if they are wrong, they can simply walk away without so much as a, "We're sorry".
     
  15. Texas10mm

    Texas10mm Member

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    Sorry Bill but the ATF isn't in the business of telling you how to hold your firearm.
     
  16. entropy

    entropy Member

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    It is a result of good lawyers winning cases against .gov using ATF regs against it.
     
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  17. Bill460

    Bill460 Member

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    Tell them that.

    "Incidental, sporadic, or situational use of an AR-15 pistol’s unmodified arm brace as a shoulder stock doesn't constitute the weapon in question being "redesigned" (and thus legally reclassified) as a short-barreled rifle or NFA item. Basically, shouldering a pistol brace "sometimes" isn’t illegal".

    https://www.80lowerjig.com/blogs/80-lower-blog/can-you-shoulder-ar-15-pistol-brace-2019/
     
  18. entropy

    entropy Member

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    You almost sound like a disgruntled former AFT agent instead of a freedom-loving gun owner.
     
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  19. Bill460

    Bill460 Member

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    I'm calling it like I see it. This whole thing has turned into a giant cluster "F".
     
  20. Texas10mm

    Texas10mm Member

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    https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/a...istol-equipped-with-an-sb-tactical-arm-brace/
    https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/atf-reportedly-approves-shockwave-pistol-brace-shouldering/

    It's a pistol brace, not a stock. Using a hammer as a screwdriver doesn't change the hammer into a screwdriver.

    Shouldering a brace doesn't change it into a stock. The ATF is not in the business of, nor do they want to, tell you how to use your equipment.

    If you don't want one, don't buy one.

    There no reason to piss on other people's parade.
     
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  21. Bill460

    Bill460 Member

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    Relax Tex, I'm not "pissing" on anything or anyone. The fact is the clarity of the laws surrounding these things are about as clear as mud. And change about as often as the wind blows. If that doesn't upset you, it should. It's ridiculous.
     
  22. Texas10mm

    Texas10mm Member

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    The interpretation of the "law" changed due to political winds in the bump stock issue. That worries me more than anything. The door is now open for a future administration to order the ATF to ban all semi-autos as machine guns.
     
  23. Bill460

    Bill460 Member

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    As I said several posts ago. Any and ALL of these 3 letter government agencies have the power of God. And they can pretty much do whatever they please, whenever they please. And even if they're wrong, it all but takes Supreme Court action, along with millions of dollars to undo it.
     
  24. Texas10mm

    Texas10mm Member

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    The Supreme Court refused to hear any cases dealing with Bump Stocks. I wouldn't place too much trust in the SC to uphold our rights.
     
  25. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    I do not know of any gun owners that like the ATF. They are a tolerable agency at best. If I looked at my phone tomorrow morning to see the ATF has been dissolved by some government whatever, I would throw a party. But, that isn't likely to happen. In the meantime, gun owners just have to roll with the regulations and memos put out by the ATF.
     
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