Shoot Out in HEB Supermarket in S. Houston!

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KFD147

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http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/2966043

Dec. 27, 2004, 12:22AM

One dead, 3 wounded in shootout
Fight begins at an apartment and finally ends inside a grocery store
By MIKE GLENN and PAIGE HEWITT
Copyright 2004 Houston Chronicle

One man was killed and at least three others wounded in a running gunbattle Sunday that started at a southeast Houston apartment complex, continued in the streets and ended inside a nearby grocery store, police said.


The unidentified man died at Ben Taub Hospital from wounds suffered in the 4 p.m. shootout that came to an end inside the H-E-B supermarket at Old Spanish Trail and Scott.

Police said the shooting started as a drug-related robbery. Police said two men went to a southeast Houston apartment in search of drugs and shot two residents there. As the suspects fled on foot, relatives of the shooting victims pursued them in a sport utility vehicle that had been reported stolen, police said.

Police said the men on foot and in the SUV exchanged gunfire in the street. Police said the suspects finally ran to the H-E-B for cover as they were pursued by the men in the SUV.

"It appears that it was a running gunbattle from the apartments over here into the store," said HPD Sgt. David Crain.

At least 40 rounds were fired outside and inside the H-E-B, police said, and a rifle, a handgun and narcotics were recovered at the scenes.

"We've got gunshots fired all through this H-E-B store," Crain said.

Police had at least three people in custody and also were questioning a store security guard.

"We understand that he discharged his firearm at these people as they were running through here shooting," Crain said.

Crain also said investigators were analyzing footage from store security cameras. "The video is very telling," he said.

Two men were shot at the apartment, including the slain man, and two more shot at the store, but police said they may not have been the only people hit.

"There were a lot of people that were fleeing here who could also have been shot that we don't know about," Crain said.

H-E-B customer Karen Torrens usually shops on Saturday but the store was closed for the Christmas holiday. She said she was in the check-out line Sunday when she heard several gunshots.

"That's when I fell to the floor," she said. "I was scared like hell, pardon my French."

Torrens said a cashier immediately threw her to the ground before covering her with his own body.

"He was protecting me. I can't say enough good things about him," said Torrens, referring to the cashier she knows as "Montel."

Detectives at the scene questioned about 20 employees who were inside the grocery store when the armed men entered and opened fire.

Crain did not know how many shoppers were in the store when the gunfire erupted.

Several stunned members of the community stood behind the crime scene tape stretched in front of the store.

Felesia Turner-Lawson works for H-E-B but at a different store. She lives down the street and came over after a family member told her about the shooting.

"I'm definitely concerned because this is my neighborhood," she said. "I've never seen anything like this. It hits home."

:what: :cuss:

What if!
This happened to you while CCW in the checkout line at the store. The bad guys are shooting at each other and coming in the front doors. You are in danger from stray bullets and shooters that don't care what else they hit trying to kill their target.

Any comments on the course of action you would take.

Thanks
Jason :cool:
 
Flee or hide - I don't have a dog in this fight. I will defend myself only if I have to.

I'm certainly not going to 'draw my piece' and then go see what's happening.

HEB's have a lot of space in the back, the bakery, meat market, dairy, etc. I find one of these door and accelerate.
 
I'm with Gee. Should I ever have a CCW, and be carrying in that circumstance, I'd probably round up the people around me and direct them and myself to cover, observe, and keep my weapon at ready reach (concealed but easy to get to, like moving from an IWB to a pocket). Only engage when approached, like Gee said, no dog in this fight.
 
I agree with the first two replies.
Even if you fire only one round you'll find yourself right in the middle of a heated court battle that you will find unpleasant at the least.
Even crack-heads have families that will sue your pants off just for being involved. :scrutiny:
 
I'd have to say that the cashier, Montel, has made a customer to the store for life.

It sounds like one group of baddies victimizing another group of baddies.

My reaction: Find cover, encourage others to find cover. Shoot only if necessary.
 
Yep to all of the above. Under such circumstances, it's virtually impossible to determine who are the good guys, and who are the bad guys (or, as in the case mentioned, that they're all bad guys!). I'd find a hole to hunker down in, or an exit door at the back.

Of course, if some armed dude sees me and decides to threaten me with his gun, then all bets are off, and I'm returning fire (or initiating it, for that matter, if I feel sufficiently threatened). But, as stated above, this will likely result in an awful lot of questions from the cops (who don't know the good guys from the bad guys either), and possibly lawsuits.
 
Okay. I think everybody agrees that if you are shopping w/o your family that you need to find a hole away from the firefight.

My next question is would you do the same thing if you were separated in the store from your wife and kids? Say you are reading the gun rags on the shelf and your family is in the dairy section on the opposite side of the store. My wife does not have her CHL and does not carry :banghead: . What would be your best stratagy in ensuring that you protect your family,when in danger, if the only way you could get to them is between the BG's? Note: we do have nextel direct connect phones.

Thanks
Jason :cool:
 
well one to keep in mind when looking at this thing is; as you are standing around butt scratching at the store, you don't know what is happening. are some of the shooters cops? which ones, maybe the lopcal pd and the feds are shooting it out over credit for a snatch. my point is that without any info you can not open fire on anyone, the only prudent course of action is to unass the area instantly, family and all.
pat :rolleyes:
 
KFD147 asked;
My next question is would you do the same thing if you were separated in the store from your wife and kids?

Yes.

My wife does not have her CHL and does not carry

Neither does mine. There is no CCW here in Illinois. I carry legally because I'm a sworn peace officer.

What would be your best stratagy in ensuring that you protect your family,when in danger, if the only way you could get to them is between the BG's? Note: we do have nextel direct connect phones.

My wife is situationally aware enough that she will be doing exactly what I'm doing, seeking cover. She doesn't need me there at her side for her to react properly. In fact we have discussed similar situations in case we would ever encounter someone who had a job related grudge against me when out together.

I think the key to this situation is prior planning. It may look kewl in the movies to pull your CCW weapon and fire and maneuver through the middle of someone elses gunfight to rescue the innocent bystander, but in real life it's not only foolhardy but a good way to get killed at worst, arrested, and sued at the best. The best way to protect your family is to train and mentally prepare them to act on their own in a situation like this.

Jeff
 
Jason, that's a good question. First, my wife will be in the cosmetics section. I only leave her to read the gun rags when she goes to look at that stuff. We do dairy and food together.

Given that I would use whatever tactical movement skills I have to try to get to her. Hopefully she had hit the floor. I think I might talk to her about that.

This brings up an old memory and a discussion on the defunct tactics-list. We were in Cracker Barrel and I was paying the bill. All of a sudden, a slew of cops enter the store and start looking around and talking to the manager. I hear them say that they had pursued a BG into the place. EEK! Grabbed the wife and said we are out of here. She said why, I said - lots 0' Cops and we skeedaddled. In our car, we watched them drag someone out.

Led to a discussion of the BG takes your loved one hostage and wants car keys to leave. Assume no cops - what to do?

Don't want to hijack this thread but I think we are on the same page that if alone, time to take care of oneself and not join the fight.
 
A pistol will not help her if she is not willing to kill in self defense. Discuss "what if" with her, using example scenarios taken from actual events (like the one you posted). Make sure she has a couple of plans to choose from. "Hide in place" and "Run for the car" are two possible plans.

The important thing is to get her to think about what she should do in a bad situation before she finds herself in the middle of one.

Communications are very important, but make sure she can deal with the situation without consulting with you first. Then you can come up with team tactics.

Be patient, it may take her a while.
 
When in doubt, whip it out...

No way, not in this case.

Most all larger stores have fairly good video surveilance.

If you pull your piece, you will, most likely, be on TV.

Guess who's scrutinizing ever millimeter of that video tape?

Hiding close to an exit is probably the best bet. Why? Cuz what's outside the exit is an unknown.
 
This situation sounds like a classic example of just who the hell is the bad guy.

Read the story again, multiple bad guys all shooting at each other, some on foot some in a car, incident began at a primary location ended up in a secondary location, the store.

You see the thugs dueling it out on isle 9 next to the cat food who you gonna shoot?

What happens if you are playing CCW Super hero and you pick out one in the crowd and pop a cap in his @$$, turns out you just shot a guy who saw his 12 year old daughter raped by the thug he’s shooting at, or God for bid a undercover cop dueling it out with a doper who just killed his partner and now is hell bent on killing him for a reason you may never know.

In this situation, unass the place, seek cover, clear leather only if you feel you are about to be shot at. The situation is very fluid; running around with a gun drawn once the cops arrive is an invitation for you to spend the night in the morgue.

In short if you are not fully prepared to go to jail, because the consequences of inaction are not as great then you should probably just run.

You are not bound by oath simply because you have a CCW to act, it’s a dog eat dog world out there and most men are every man for himself.


:uhoh:
 
In this situation, unass the place, seek cover, clear leather only if you feel you are about to be shot at.

A very optimistic defensive posture but hope is not reliable strategy. If I understand this clearly, with fire breaking out around me I draw my weapon only if I feel I am immediately about to be shot?
 
Fortunately 99.999% of the folks here will never be in a S/D situation.

A lot here are under the impression that if it’s a good shoot they will be at one with the universe and it will all soon be over once the corner removes the body.

The hard reality is anything but, you will be going to jail, you will be booked in, and unless it’s just laboratory perfect circumstances you will be charged by LE with a violent crime.

Then it will be up to the DA as to whether he/she wants s to press forward to Grand Jury and ultimately Superior Court.

You will need a good criminal defense lawyer and then a good civil litigation lawyer once you clear the criminal hurdle.

Taking a life is not as simple as TV would have it portrayed even for a cop.

Many here are very cavalier about the topic, firmly believing they will come out on top because they attended LFI or watched every single rerun of Law and Order and know more about the law than any 50 Federal Judges combined.

A lot of times I read the stuff posted here and laugh thinking to myself

“Geeesh! I hope this guy never winds up in whatever situation he is dreaming of.â€

The best way to tell someone when it’s time to fire in self-defense is this,

Don’t pull that trigger unless you are absolutely 100% prepared to go to jail.

I’ve been a cop for a combined total of over 5 years for three different departments, I’ve sat thru more criminal investigations classes that I care to recall and I can tell you with a degree of certainty it’s a lot easier to ask the DA to dismiss charges than to explain to a Superior Court Judge the role you had in a failure of Justice.

That’s gonna make a lot of folk around here mad as wet hornets but I’m sorry, I didn’t create this system all I can do is work within this system to see that the DA does hear why it was a good shoot and no charges should be sought against Joe Citizen and why the world is a better place because Harry Scumbag is no longer with us.
:(
 
Don’t pull that trigger unless you are absolutely 100% prepared to go to jail.

If you ever get to experience the threat of death you will find out that none of the things you mention are a consideration when you are defending your life. These points aren't even an afterthought since one is so filled with relief just to be breathing.

I can see how it would bother you to arrest people for defending their lives but that's your problem, not ours.
 
If you ever get to experience the threat of death you will find out that none of the things you mention are a consideration when you are defending your life.

That's why it pays to work these things out now. You will default to your training.

These points aren't even an afterthought since one is so filled with relief just to be breathing.

That's why they have to be thought of before. Because it's best to be breathing free air. Before you've recovered from the adrenaline dump, you'll have all kinds of people who weren't there and didn't see things from your perspective passing judgement on your actions. Some of these people will decide if you sleep in your own bed that night or if you get a room at the Graybar Motel. Later they will decide if you should be allowed to continue your life as you planned or if you need to be locked up to keep everyone else safe.

Later other people who weren't there will most likely decide that your heroic action has actually deprived a loving family of the companionship of the poor victim of your actions. Nothing less then your life savings and the kids' college money will compensate them for their loss.

It's the way our system works. Life isn't a western movie. All the bystanders aren't going to run up to the responding officers and say "It was a fair fight, the BG drew first." and the officer isn't going to say; "Well, it looks like a clear case of self defense, don't leave town until Judge Parker has an inquest."

In a situation like we're discussing in this thread, it's very possible that someone will look at your actions and decide that you endangered other people if you jump in and start shooting without knowing what's going on. And with that decision will most likely come criminal charges, loss of your CCW permit, and anti-CCW editorials about untrained citizens jumping into gunfights.

Jeff
 
Wow this sounds like a scary scenario. I would definetly be pushing the wife out the back of the store!! Unless it looked like they are shooting unarmed women and children I would most likely stay out of this situation. My first duty is to try to retreat with my loved ones!
 
"if you jump in and start shooting "

Understood, we do get value from planning ahead but to a person nobody in this thread mentioned doing anything heroic. We've got that part sorted out pretty darn good. This kind of thing is not a common problem among permit owners from what I can tell. Without a direct connection between these two thing threats come across as though certain people are bent on deterring us from protecting ourselves with a gun (to me anyway).

I doubt there are any here that expect to just go home like nothing happened after defending themselves with a gun. That can be evidenced by the reluctance of people attempting to avoid reporting self defense incidents (the shoot, shovel, and shutup syndrome). I was trying to explain to Mr. Weasel a more realistic interpretation of what he is mis-perceiving. It is a difficult concept to grasp for those who would place themselves in the position of second guessing others I suppose?
 
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From TheFederalistWeasel
Fortunately 99.999% of the folks here will never be in a S/D situation.

According to the statistics, more of us already have. Now, situations where we have to fire for protection, rather than the mere clearing of leather, running, or some other de-escalation of the situation, that is a different statistic.

A lot here are under the impression that if it’s a good shoot they will be at one with the universe and it will all soon be over once the corner removes the body.

Um, I've never seen many of us espouse this. Most of us go along with the assumption that that critical pull of the trigger will cost us thousands of dollars and some time in jail, and possibly a trial, lawsuits, and retribution.

The hard reality is anything but, you will be going to jail, you will be booked in, and unless it’s just laboratory perfect circumstances you will be charged by LE with a violent crime.

We agree with you. What makes you think differently? Any time somebody dies there needs to be an investigation. This investigation takes time, and until then, the person holding the smoking gun needs to be held in case it turns out to be murder. Though "laboratory perfect" seems a strange term. I'd say "plain to the naked eye". Laboratories take days to return any results.

Then it will be up to the DA as to whether he/she wants s to press forward to Grand Jury and ultimately Superior Court.

And we're well aware of how many DA's will press charges even as the papers and public opinion scream against it. While public opinion isn't always the most accurate, some DA's are incredibly anti-gun.

You will need a good criminal defense lawyer and then a good civil litigation lawyer once you clear the criminal hurdle.

Probably. See the thousands of dollars cost comment.

Taking a life is not as simple as TV would have it portrayed even for a cop.

True.

Many here are very cavalier about the topic, firmly believing they will come out on top because they attended LFI or watched every single rerun of Law and Order and know more about the law than any 50 Federal Judges combined.

Yeah, we do get a number of puffed heads on even this board.

A lot of times I read the stuff posted here and laugh thinking to myself

“Geeesh! I hope this guy never winds up in whatever situation he is dreaming of.â€

The best way to tell someone when it’s time to fire in self-defense is this,

Don’t pull that trigger unless you are absolutely 100% prepared to go to jail.


Actually, I prefer "Don't pull the trigger unless the alternative is probable death or serious injury".

I’ve been a cop for a combined total of over 5 years for three different departments, I’ve sat thru more criminal investigations classes that I care to recall and I can tell you with a degree of certainty it’s a lot easier to ask the DA to dismiss charges than to explain to a Superior Court Judge the role you had in a failure of Justice.

If you don't press charges, why do you have to explain to a Superior Court Judge why you aren't? What's the technical definition of a "failure of Justice"?

That’s gonna make a lot of folk around here mad as wet hornets but I’m sorry, I didn’t create this system all I can do is work within this system to see that the DA does hear why it was a good shoot and no charges should be sought against Joe Citizen and why the world is a better place because Harry Scumbag is no longer with us.

Sounds okay.
By the way, why are you launching into this rant when every statement before amounted to "seek cover/escape, shoot only if threatened/necessary"?
 
Marko, you would be surprised how many places in TX, even in 'good' neighborhoods have armed guards.

Might be a TX thing. Our favorite fish restaurants usually have an off duty LEO prowling around. This is 'fancy' areas.
 
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