Someone today at the range told me that shooting a .22 rifle will improve your ability to shoot a shotgun. I must admit, I know very little about rifles and accordingly, very little about the related form and process involved when firing one. So, my question is this: Will shooting a rifle improve your ability to shoot a shotgun (ie, get rid of flinch, help with good form, etc)?
Shooting a .22 Rifle Good Practice for Shotgun?
- Thread starter shaggycat
- Start date
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arcticap
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Sure
All long guns share some degree of shooting technique transferability. While others may disagree on the amount, I think that there's a lot that can be learned through repetitive shooting of a .22 than can be can directly transferred. Most of the basics are the same, especially isolating the trigger properly and learning to use the techniques that are right for you to not jerk the gun off target while squeezing the trigger.
While every long gun might have a little different technique or two "hidden" within its stock design (due to length, etc...) that you might have to discover on your own to obtain the best performance with any particular long gun, there are many more numerous similarities.
Developing the muscle memory that's involved in how you can best hold and shoot a long gun is largely transferable intact from long to long gun, whether it's a .22 or a shotgun.
Since a .22 is much more dependent on accuracy and sighting in order to hit your target, it's probably the best way to learn long gun markmanship skills.
An open metallic sighted .22 in particular will help you learn to keep your head down on the stock more like shooting a shotgun, but even a scoped .22 should help to teach a person to become more proficient at holding and shooting. The smaller the scope (3/4 inch) and the lower it's mounted on the receiver, the more you will learn to keep your head down on the stock in a very consistent postion which is often a plus in shotgunning.
One of the differences might be in how one would mount the rifle vs. the shotgun. While rifles are often shouldered before the head goes down on to the stock (comb), shotguns are usually mounted best when brought up to the cheek and then shouldered in a simultaneous type fashion.
All long guns share some degree of shooting technique transferability. While others may disagree on the amount, I think that there's a lot that can be learned through repetitive shooting of a .22 than can be can directly transferred. Most of the basics are the same, especially isolating the trigger properly and learning to use the techniques that are right for you to not jerk the gun off target while squeezing the trigger.
While every long gun might have a little different technique or two "hidden" within its stock design (due to length, etc...) that you might have to discover on your own to obtain the best performance with any particular long gun, there are many more numerous similarities.
Developing the muscle memory that's involved in how you can best hold and shoot a long gun is largely transferable intact from long to long gun, whether it's a .22 or a shotgun.
Since a .22 is much more dependent on accuracy and sighting in order to hit your target, it's probably the best way to learn long gun markmanship skills.
An open metallic sighted .22 in particular will help you learn to keep your head down on the stock more like shooting a shotgun, but even a scoped .22 should help to teach a person to become more proficient at holding and shooting. The smaller the scope (3/4 inch) and the lower it's mounted on the receiver, the more you will learn to keep your head down on the stock in a very consistent postion which is often a plus in shotgunning.
One of the differences might be in how one would mount the rifle vs. the shotgun. While rifles are often shouldered before the head goes down on to the stock (comb), shotguns are usually mounted best when brought up to the cheek and then shouldered in a simultaneous type fashion.
Well.. I guess... as long as you consider using a riding lawn mower to be practice for driving on the interstate.
What I mean is... sure there are things that apply to using both and will be transferable (safe handling, held relatively the same way, bullet still comes out of the barrel, etc.), but there are VAST differences too. Both will handle quite differently (recoil, loading, noise levels, physical "feel" of the firearm and all that jazz.)
What I mean is... sure there are things that apply to using both and will be transferable (safe handling, held relatively the same way, bullet still comes out of the barrel, etc.), but there are VAST differences too. Both will handle quite differently (recoil, loading, noise levels, physical "feel" of the firearm and all that jazz.)
I don't see it. A few things like trigger control may carry over. But, when I teach new shotgunners one big hurdle to overcome is correcting their stance, getting them to NOT aim, etc.
To echo Col Cooper, ti's best to learn one arm at a time.
To echo Col Cooper, ti's best to learn one arm at a time.
Actually I think shooting a rifle is contrary to improving with a shotgun.
With a rifle the objective is little or no movement, a more rigid stance, precise trigger pull and focusing on the front sight. Meanwhile, a shotgun is all movement, a stance that facilitates a gun swing and focusing on the target. Trigger pull is more instinctive than precise.
Rifles and shotguns are two very different disciplines. If you want to improve with a shotgun the best way is to practice with one.
With a rifle the objective is little or no movement, a more rigid stance, precise trigger pull and focusing on the front sight. Meanwhile, a shotgun is all movement, a stance that facilitates a gun swing and focusing on the target. Trigger pull is more instinctive than precise.
Rifles and shotguns are two very different disciplines. If you want to improve with a shotgun the best way is to practice with one.
Ha! I'm the first to say it 
...get Bob Brister's book (Shotgunning: the art and the science). It was recommended on multiple threads so I got it...worth every penny. In it he talks about the BB gun technique etc. Very helpful book for beginners and others...
...get Bob Brister's book (Shotgunning: the art and the science). It was recommended on multiple threads so I got it...worth every penny. In it he talks about the BB gun technique etc. Very helpful book for beginners and others...I got a email on this since I use Red Ryder BB Guns to teach Shotgunning.
The brain remembers what makes it feel the way it does. -PhDs I know in various fields from Anatomy & Physiology, General Practice, Surgeons, Biology,Chemistry...
Examples :
- Addictions to Drug (perscribed or illegal) , Alcohol.
-Sex.
-The smells of Fried Chicken cooking, baked apples.
-Barefoot on hot sand, hot sidewalk.
~~
The Human being is the best Computer. It gathers information from various "stimuli" and "associates" this Stimuli to "results".
~~
The Armed Forces taught Skeet, to Aerial Gunners to get them "trained" to access a moving target ( speed, angle of flight) and to get a lead and keep the gun moving and follow thru.
Country boys raised up shooting quail and doves (with shotguns) were more "natural" in aerial gunning" than those that 1) were not bird hunters 2) only shot stationary targets with rifles.
Human brain ( whole body computer) "associates" Shotguns with moving targets, and Rifles with stationary targets.
But the Red Ryder Steve...
Shotguns are pointed - not aimed
We bust off the sights, front and rear. The Human Computer "associates" a BB Gun with no sights as being a "pointed" firearm and not one that is "aimed".
Train the brain.
Smells of Fried Chicken cooking get the human body to start the process of "eating fried chicken". Saliva, juices to digest food, taste buds, the whole human body "gets ready ".
Old metal diaper pail on the other hand. The human body upon seeing the pail would "defend itself" and prepare itself for that ammonia odor. Breathing changes, Senses such as smell, taste, feel all "prepare" for them wet, stinky, soiled cloth diapers needing to be laundered.
A lady see's a young stud with his shirt off and her "senses" stir up just as a guy does seeing a young lady in bikini. The brain remembers.
~~
I grew up learning to shoot w/o sights on Shotguns. My Mentors also taught me to shoot w/o sights on handguns and rifles.
Correct basic fundamentals of shooting were instilled.
Gun fit to shooter is that important.
I was "trained" with a shotgun to shoot moving targets, My computer associated shotguns with moving targets.
With a handgun or rifle with NO sights, My brain associated these with "aiming".
Gun fit , correct basics of how I held the handgun/ rifle were that important my Mentors felt.
If the gun fits, and the shooter has trained the brain in the right way to do things with whatever (handgun, rifle, shotgun) he will be a better shooter.
See a feller will scrunch, bunch up, get all whompered jawed to get that front bead to line up, when that quail flushes - he ain't got time to get all scrunched around that shotgun.
If'n that feller is shooting a handgun or rifle that don't fit, don't know proper how to shoot with the basics, can't do the controls, then when he has to shoot that critter in the henhouse with handgun, or that deer steps out...he is stepping and fetching to get stuff to work, and either misses, too late or worse.
Never ever learn with a crutch young'un , never. Always learn with the most basic, the most basic skills, and basics of that gun.
This is why I personally choose to not use a Shotgun with a AR15 type stock. I have hundreds of thousands of shotgun shells fired under my belt. I built upon those correct basic fundamentals, with shotguns bone stock. Sometimes I lost a bead in competition, I sometimes never knew the bead fell off. Other guns, like many serious competititors from Skeet, Trap, Live Pigeons...do NOT even put a bead on a shotgun, and these are expensive shotguns sometimes.
These guns all fit the shooter to a "T", and the shooters know the correct basic fundamentals.
"That .22 rifle...".
I was about 7, and had been doing all them dad-blasted mounting shotgun to face correctly them Mentors made me do. They were tossing nuts, rocks, whatever and making me swing thru these and go bang. No live ammo that cold day, first freeze done happened.
I wanted to shoot my .22 revolver, they wanted me to stop, digest everything. I was looking at a single shot rifle one of the guys had that fit a kid my size. No sights at all, another one of them "learning tools".
The box of .22 shells on the tailgate, and they said "ok go ahead and piddle with it".
I fired two shells, then a squirrel popped out onto the ground as I had just loaded the 3 rd .22 short.
"Get 'em boy, shoot it like a shotgun".
My focus was on the leading edge of that bushy tail, I never saw the barrel, the front of that .22 rifle, all I focused on was his nose. "Pop"
12 steps of a mentor got that squirrel I had hit on the run. That little .22 short entered between his nose and eye.
Then I promptly cut my jacket with the Case Knife learning how to skin the durn thing...a bit excited still I guess...
Mentors not much help, all swollen at the chest, grinning, just a carryin' on...
Hard to teach Mentors how to behave when you are only 7 years old you know...
Young 'un, when you get a bunch of rounds fired as we have, been on this earth as long as we have...well it takes doing. Gotta pay your dues, can't buy it - gotta earn it.
Now someday you will get there, it'll just click on light a light bulb. Can't push it, just gotta keep on doing the right thing and it'll hit, if'n you been doing your part. Differs from person to person, like learning to walk - when its time, its time and no sooner. Still you gotta put in the time and effort.
You'll hit a dimension, and others, but young'un, you just nailed a bushy tail, a moving target with a bullet. You'd of nailed him with a shotgun, or that slingshot you got...seen you do it with that sling shot, same thang, different tool.
"Am in trouble about cutting my jacket with your knife"
(I'm about 7 remember and don't want to be on the wrong side of these fellers. I...I don't want to mess up , and mess up a good time..<head down, ashamed>).
Young'un, you were being safe cutting away from you. Just you learned a lesson, life is like that. One my Case Trapper don't fit you, that was my fault, here use this smaller Case Pen knife, it'll fit them smaller hands of yours better. You also learned to not set your jacket where cleaning a critter. A little blood and hair never hurt nothing, and that cut ain't much. We get back you gonna learn to sew...a feller got to know how to sew. I know'd you have done buttons, still this is different and just another step using the same tools.
Now take this Case Pen knife and what you wanna do is...
No sights on a Case Knife, still it too helps it the darn knife fits the littler hands...
Steve
The brain remembers what makes it feel the way it does. -PhDs I know in various fields from Anatomy & Physiology, General Practice, Surgeons, Biology,Chemistry...
Examples :
- Addictions to Drug (perscribed or illegal) , Alcohol.
-Sex.
-The smells of Fried Chicken cooking, baked apples.
-Barefoot on hot sand, hot sidewalk.
~~
The Human being is the best Computer. It gathers information from various "stimuli" and "associates" this Stimuli to "results".
~~
The Armed Forces taught Skeet, to Aerial Gunners to get them "trained" to access a moving target ( speed, angle of flight) and to get a lead and keep the gun moving and follow thru.
Country boys raised up shooting quail and doves (with shotguns) were more "natural" in aerial gunning" than those that 1) were not bird hunters 2) only shot stationary targets with rifles.
Human brain ( whole body computer) "associates" Shotguns with moving targets, and Rifles with stationary targets.
But the Red Ryder Steve...
Shotguns are pointed - not aimed
We bust off the sights, front and rear. The Human Computer "associates" a BB Gun with no sights as being a "pointed" firearm and not one that is "aimed".
Train the brain.
Smells of Fried Chicken cooking get the human body to start the process of "eating fried chicken". Saliva, juices to digest food, taste buds, the whole human body "gets ready ".
Old metal diaper pail on the other hand. The human body upon seeing the pail would "defend itself" and prepare itself for that ammonia odor. Breathing changes, Senses such as smell, taste, feel all "prepare" for them wet, stinky, soiled cloth diapers needing to be laundered.
A lady see's a young stud with his shirt off and her "senses" stir up just as a guy does seeing a young lady in bikini. The brain remembers.
~~
I grew up learning to shoot w/o sights on Shotguns. My Mentors also taught me to shoot w/o sights on handguns and rifles.
Correct basic fundamentals of shooting were instilled.
Gun fit to shooter is that important.
I was "trained" with a shotgun to shoot moving targets, My computer associated shotguns with moving targets.
With a handgun or rifle with NO sights, My brain associated these with "aiming".
Gun fit , correct basics of how I held the handgun/ rifle were that important my Mentors felt.
If the gun fits, and the shooter has trained the brain in the right way to do things with whatever (handgun, rifle, shotgun) he will be a better shooter.
See a feller will scrunch, bunch up, get all whompered jawed to get that front bead to line up, when that quail flushes - he ain't got time to get all scrunched around that shotgun.
If'n that feller is shooting a handgun or rifle that don't fit, don't know proper how to shoot with the basics, can't do the controls, then when he has to shoot that critter in the henhouse with handgun, or that deer steps out...he is stepping and fetching to get stuff to work, and either misses, too late or worse.
Never ever learn with a crutch young'un , never. Always learn with the most basic, the most basic skills, and basics of that gun.
This is why I personally choose to not use a Shotgun with a AR15 type stock. I have hundreds of thousands of shotgun shells fired under my belt. I built upon those correct basic fundamentals, with shotguns bone stock. Sometimes I lost a bead in competition, I sometimes never knew the bead fell off. Other guns, like many serious competititors from Skeet, Trap, Live Pigeons...do NOT even put a bead on a shotgun, and these are expensive shotguns sometimes.
These guns all fit the shooter to a "T", and the shooters know the correct basic fundamentals.
"That .22 rifle...".
I was about 7, and had been doing all them dad-blasted mounting shotgun to face correctly them Mentors made me do. They were tossing nuts, rocks, whatever and making me swing thru these and go bang. No live ammo that cold day, first freeze done happened.
I wanted to shoot my .22 revolver, they wanted me to stop, digest everything. I was looking at a single shot rifle one of the guys had that fit a kid my size. No sights at all, another one of them "learning tools".
The box of .22 shells on the tailgate, and they said "ok go ahead and piddle with it".
I fired two shells, then a squirrel popped out onto the ground as I had just loaded the 3 rd .22 short.
"Get 'em boy, shoot it like a shotgun".
My focus was on the leading edge of that bushy tail, I never saw the barrel, the front of that .22 rifle, all I focused on was his nose. "Pop"
12 steps of a mentor got that squirrel I had hit on the run. That little .22 short entered between his nose and eye.
Then I promptly cut my jacket with the Case Knife learning how to skin the durn thing...a bit excited still I guess...
Mentors not much help, all swollen at the chest, grinning, just a carryin' on...
Hard to teach Mentors how to behave when you are only 7 years old you know...
Young 'un, when you get a bunch of rounds fired as we have, been on this earth as long as we have...well it takes doing. Gotta pay your dues, can't buy it - gotta earn it.
Now someday you will get there, it'll just click on light a light bulb. Can't push it, just gotta keep on doing the right thing and it'll hit, if'n you been doing your part. Differs from person to person, like learning to walk - when its time, its time and no sooner. Still you gotta put in the time and effort.
You'll hit a dimension, and others, but young'un, you just nailed a bushy tail, a moving target with a bullet. You'd of nailed him with a shotgun, or that slingshot you got...seen you do it with that sling shot, same thang, different tool.
"Am in trouble about cutting my jacket with your knife"
(I'm about 7 remember and don't want to be on the wrong side of these fellers. I...I don't want to mess up , and mess up a good time..<head down, ashamed>).
Young'un, you were being safe cutting away from you. Just you learned a lesson, life is like that. One my Case Trapper don't fit you, that was my fault, here use this smaller Case Pen knife, it'll fit them smaller hands of yours better. You also learned to not set your jacket where cleaning a critter. A little blood and hair never hurt nothing, and that cut ain't much. We get back you gonna learn to sew...a feller got to know how to sew. I know'd you have done buttons, still this is different and just another step using the same tools.
Now take this Case Pen knife and what you wanna do is...
No sights on a Case Knife, still it too helps it the darn knife fits the littler hands...
Steve
I don't think so, at all. A rifle is all about precision aiming...A shotgun (unless hunting w/ slugs) is all about "pointing" and anticipating the location of the target. I was a "natural" (as was my dad, must be genetic) with a shotgun. Within a couple hundred rounds I could shoot 98-99% at trap. But it took me a much longer time to become really proficient (and I'm STILL working on it, at 51) with a rifle.
Shooting a .22?
I'm not half bad at shooting a .22 rifle, and I can attest that it has no carryover to shotgunning whatsoever. Even the trigger habits you gain will need to be unlearned.
Pistol shooting might, archery definitely does, even golf is good training for proprioception (your brain knowing where your body is in space and how it's moving).
If you can break 25 clays with a .22 rifle, though, I suppose that will carry over to shotgunning. And a career as a professional trickshooter.
I'm not half bad at shooting a .22 rifle, and I can attest that it has no carryover to shotgunning whatsoever. Even the trigger habits you gain will need to be unlearned.
Pistol shooting might, archery definitely does, even golf is good training for proprioception (your brain knowing where your body is in space and how it's moving).
If you can break 25 clays with a .22 rifle, though, I suppose that will carry over to shotgunning. And a career as a professional trickshooter.
IMO/IME
It is easier to get a shotgunner to learn to shoot rifles - that a rifle shooter to shoot shotguns.
Just how the human computer is set up I suppose.
Moving clays with single projectile? Had some Mentors that could hit clays rolling with a handgun, or toss them up. Some could toss up targets and hit with a handgun or rifle.
IIRC Topperwien (sp?) Used a Rem Nylon 66 and shot over 100,000 One inch cubes of wood without missing, that were tossed up into the air. Proving his skills, and the reliability of the Rem 66 .22 rifle.
Low 7 on a cow pasture skeet field, with safe backstop, I "finally" ran 51 clay targets straight using slugs from a shotgun. Did that with my '74 SX1
I have run 26 straight doing the same thing from Low 7 at the same cow pasture skeet field using a Single Shot, H&R Topper in .410 , NO front bead - using slugs...We ran out of slugs and sometimes it is best to quit while ahead.
All shots taken from low gun, meaning correct mounting gun to face.
I hate to admit this, still the lesson is to check pockets of loads before one hunts a different game/ or to have some loads separate.
Before non-toxic shot was required for waterfowl, I was standing in Flooded timber and two green head come in with afterburners on.
I - again from low gun - mounted gun to face and took the 2nd greenhead "BOOM!," Kept swinging hard to get the first greenhead and again "BOOM!"
'Just what the hell did you shoot?'
35 steps ( about 35 yards according to Dekes set out) one them greenheads did not have a head, blew it totally off. The other only partial indication it was a head and one "hole" in thru the neck.
I looked in the water and retreived my spent hulls. Second bird (behind and shot first) was hit with 9 pellet load of 00 buck, the other with a 1 oz slug.
That slug totally blew the head off, and we never could figure out where it ended up.
I had forgotten to remove these from my jacket pocket and put inside where I kept heavier loadings for deer, 2 legged varmits, or other farm critters that can cause harm.
All I focus on is the leading sliver of a target. Gun fit is that important, as is the correct mounting to face every single time, and all of the other correct basic fundamentals.
This is why I personally do not want a pistol gripped only, or pistol grip with full stock, recoil reducing stock, AR style stock on a gun. I was taught to learn the basics. I have too many years, and have fired hundreds of thousands of shotgun shells. I am just too damn versatile with a bone stock shotgun.
This is what I share, how I teach and pass forward.
I can shoot a PGO, I have taught it to armored guards. I have gone 4/4 at quail and 5/5 at Doves with a PGO using target loads...it was something to do.
Still I started off the armored guards with full stock , bone stock shotguns with light target loads.
I can shoot the other "accessoried" shotguns, prefer not to as it can for me limit MY versatitly. I have taught / assisted / shared these guns to folks. Folks in LEO, or other specific needs. I still start with the basics and bone stock shotguns.
Once I / we get the basics, then it is easier for the LEO to use Dept issued shorter stocked, and accessorized shotguns. We do patterning and everything else too. So when he trains with whatever the Dept has for them to use, they understand all this Art & Science
This is why I harp about getting a bone stock gun and learning the basics - and NOT getting fuzzy dice and curb feelers. Then when you show up at a shotgun class like Awerbuck or whomever, you have the safety and administrative stuff down pat, and the correct basics.
Then you ask Awerbuck ( whomever) to assit in gun fit for defensive use. I have never heard of an instructor fussing about a bone stock shotgun. I have heard of them fussing about curb feelers and fuzzy dice on one and NO backup gun, in a more "bone stock" coinfiguration.
Don't learn with a crutch young'un...
If the guns fits and you have correct basic fundamentals down - less percieved recoil.
Clay shooters will shoot a minimum of 100 birds in an event. Heck I have been known to shoot 750 rds on competition targets alone over 3 days, plus any practice rds, or getting warmed up rounds.
I've shot 16 practice rounds of skeet (25 rds each) in a day. I have fired 5000 shells in one week.
Explains how we used to get a new gun all smooth and buttery in a weeks time. Bring it out, and between everyone shooting it and high round count, in a week it was smooth, slick and ready for a tourney in the pump gun only events. 870s will go 7500 rds without cleaning, an 1100 in 20 ga will run 5000 rds in a week with no malf's or hiccups too, without cleaning...other examples I can cite like a 1974 SX1 [like mine] we ran 10k rds and it never failed.
Just we never shot a tourney with a clean gun - we always competed with a gun that had been shot. After we run that Sx1 10k rds, clean, new "O" ring, lube and shoot 100 rds, wipe off and then shoot a tourney. The 16 y/o girl, that used this gun, won E class with a 91 btw. NO shootoff needed.
She did 100 reps of correct mounting that SX1 to her face each night.
Oh the 10k rounds was not to see if reliable or get broke in, the SX1 did not need such a thing being a machined pc. Brister even wrote about this and used a SX1 some. There was a bet, if the gun could go 2k rds with no malfs, or hiccups after the factory lube removed and relube - there was a C note to be had. WE got a bit carried away, and the cigar box kept having folding money tossed in and ...well...
Bascially that SX1 did not cost "daddy' any money for daughter and daughter had money for reloader of her own, and equipment to shoot in competition with $700 was a lot of money back then...best recall that was the cigar box in rounded numbers before it was all over.
Yeah we were known to be "something else"....some of us still are.
Learn the correct basics in shotgunning using a qualified instructor, with a gun that fits.
Can't buy it - gotta earn it.
It is easier to get a shotgunner to learn to shoot rifles - that a rifle shooter to shoot shotguns.
Just how the human computer is set up I suppose.
Moving clays with single projectile? Had some Mentors that could hit clays rolling with a handgun, or toss them up. Some could toss up targets and hit with a handgun or rifle.
IIRC Topperwien (sp?) Used a Rem Nylon 66 and shot over 100,000 One inch cubes of wood without missing, that were tossed up into the air. Proving his skills, and the reliability of the Rem 66 .22 rifle.
Low 7 on a cow pasture skeet field, with safe backstop, I "finally" ran 51 clay targets straight using slugs from a shotgun. Did that with my '74 SX1
I have run 26 straight doing the same thing from Low 7 at the same cow pasture skeet field using a Single Shot, H&R Topper in .410 , NO front bead - using slugs...We ran out of slugs and sometimes it is best to quit while ahead.
All shots taken from low gun, meaning correct mounting gun to face.
I hate to admit this, still the lesson is to check pockets of loads before one hunts a different game/ or to have some loads separate.
Before non-toxic shot was required for waterfowl, I was standing in Flooded timber and two green head come in with afterburners on.
I - again from low gun - mounted gun to face and took the 2nd greenhead "BOOM!," Kept swinging hard to get the first greenhead and again "BOOM!"
'Just what the hell did you shoot?'
35 steps ( about 35 yards according to Dekes set out) one them greenheads did not have a head, blew it totally off. The other only partial indication it was a head and one "hole" in thru the neck.
I looked in the water and retreived my spent hulls. Second bird (behind and shot first) was hit with 9 pellet load of 00 buck, the other with a 1 oz slug.
That slug totally blew the head off, and we never could figure out where it ended up.
I had forgotten to remove these from my jacket pocket and put inside where I kept heavier loadings for deer, 2 legged varmits, or other farm critters that can cause harm.
All I focus on is the leading sliver of a target. Gun fit is that important, as is the correct mounting to face every single time, and all of the other correct basic fundamentals.
This is why I personally do not want a pistol gripped only, or pistol grip with full stock, recoil reducing stock, AR style stock on a gun. I was taught to learn the basics. I have too many years, and have fired hundreds of thousands of shotgun shells. I am just too damn versatile with a bone stock shotgun.
This is what I share, how I teach and pass forward.
I can shoot a PGO, I have taught it to armored guards. I have gone 4/4 at quail and 5/5 at Doves with a PGO using target loads...it was something to do.
Still I started off the armored guards with full stock , bone stock shotguns with light target loads.
I can shoot the other "accessoried" shotguns, prefer not to as it can for me limit MY versatitly. I have taught / assisted / shared these guns to folks. Folks in LEO, or other specific needs. I still start with the basics and bone stock shotguns.
Once I / we get the basics, then it is easier for the LEO to use Dept issued shorter stocked, and accessorized shotguns. We do patterning and everything else too. So when he trains with whatever the Dept has for them to use, they understand all this Art & Science
This is why I harp about getting a bone stock gun and learning the basics - and NOT getting fuzzy dice and curb feelers. Then when you show up at a shotgun class like Awerbuck or whomever, you have the safety and administrative stuff down pat, and the correct basics.
Then you ask Awerbuck ( whomever) to assit in gun fit for defensive use. I have never heard of an instructor fussing about a bone stock shotgun. I have heard of them fussing about curb feelers and fuzzy dice on one and NO backup gun, in a more "bone stock" coinfiguration.
Don't learn with a crutch young'un...
If the guns fits and you have correct basic fundamentals down - less percieved recoil.
Clay shooters will shoot a minimum of 100 birds in an event. Heck I have been known to shoot 750 rds on competition targets alone over 3 days, plus any practice rds, or getting warmed up rounds.
I've shot 16 practice rounds of skeet (25 rds each) in a day. I have fired 5000 shells in one week.
Explains how we used to get a new gun all smooth and buttery in a weeks time. Bring it out, and between everyone shooting it and high round count, in a week it was smooth, slick and ready for a tourney in the pump gun only events. 870s will go 7500 rds without cleaning, an 1100 in 20 ga will run 5000 rds in a week with no malf's or hiccups too, without cleaning...other examples I can cite like a 1974 SX1 [like mine] we ran 10k rds and it never failed.
Just we never shot a tourney with a clean gun - we always competed with a gun that had been shot. After we run that Sx1 10k rds, clean, new "O" ring, lube and shoot 100 rds, wipe off and then shoot a tourney. The 16 y/o girl, that used this gun, won E class with a 91 btw. NO shootoff needed.
She did 100 reps of correct mounting that SX1 to her face each night.
Oh the 10k rounds was not to see if reliable or get broke in, the SX1 did not need such a thing being a machined pc. Brister even wrote about this and used a SX1 some. There was a bet, if the gun could go 2k rds with no malfs, or hiccups after the factory lube removed and relube - there was a C note to be had. WE got a bit carried away, and the cigar box kept having folding money tossed in and ...well...
Bascially that SX1 did not cost "daddy' any money for daughter and daughter had money for reloader of her own, and equipment to shoot in competition with
$700 was a lot of money back then...best recall that was the cigar box in rounded numbers before it was all over. Yeah we were known to be "something else"....some of us still are.
Learn the correct basics in shotgunning using a qualified instructor, with a gun that fits.
Can't buy it - gotta earn it.
arcticap
Member
Is the glass half empty or half full?
Why do deer hunters in the shotgun states have scopes or rifle sights on their shotgun slug barrels? Why do turkey hunters often opt to install rifle sights on their vented ribs? Because they need to shoot more accurately and hold their shotgun steady while doing it.
I volunteer to work at turkey shoots that are held at my shooting club each fall. Can you imagine how many people I see mostly miss the 25 yard target with a full load of shot because they can't hold and shoot a long gun without jerking it off target.
Everyone is entitled to focus on the differences between advanced shotgunning and basic .22 rifle shooting skills. But I'm talking about beginners with very little long gun shooting skills that may have relatively little practical experience even holding the forestock of a long gun.
There's are many different muscles and techniques involved and I'm pretty sure that many of the same ones are used whether the long gun attempted to being held steady is a rifle or a shotgun. Notice that I'm focusing on "holding" a long gun steady while trying to shoot it.
I've also seen a most famous modern trick shooter, and he demonstrated fantastic shooting feats with both rifles and shotguns. I believe that at least some degree of his holding & shooting technique is transferrable.
Wouldn't anyone suppose that Annie Oakly would have said the same?
Why do deer hunters in the shotgun states have scopes or rifle sights on their shotgun slug barrels? Why do turkey hunters often opt to install rifle sights on their vented ribs? Because they need to shoot more accurately and hold their shotgun steady while doing it.
I volunteer to work at turkey shoots that are held at my shooting club each fall. Can you imagine how many people I see mostly miss the 25 yard target with a full load of shot because they can't hold and shoot a long gun without jerking it off target.
Everyone is entitled to focus on the differences between advanced shotgunning and basic .22 rifle shooting skills. But I'm talking about beginners with very little long gun shooting skills that may have relatively little practical experience even holding the forestock of a long gun.
There's are many different muscles and techniques involved and I'm pretty sure that many of the same ones are used whether the long gun attempted to being held steady is a rifle or a shotgun. Notice that I'm focusing on "holding" a long gun steady while trying to shoot it.
I've also seen a most famous modern trick shooter, and he demonstrated fantastic shooting feats with both rifles and shotguns. I believe that at least some degree of his holding & shooting technique is transferrable.
Wouldn't anyone suppose that Annie Oakly would have said the same?
toivo
Member
I'll go with the majority: It's "chalk and cheese," as the Brits say. Deer and turkey hunting are the exceptions in shotgunning, which is mostly about flying targets. For basic gun handling, a .22 is the logical first long gun, but it only makes sense as a shotgun trainer if you're planning to use your shotgun like a rifle: on deer and turkeys.
3 possibilities:
1. They're rifle shooters and they don't know what to do with a standard shotgun barrel -- there's nothing wrong with not wanting to learn a superflous new skill if all they ever hunt with the thing is turkey.
2. They need accuracy in VERY low light and glowing fiberoptics do offer that.
3. They can't resist the temptation to hang one more doo-hickey on their shotgun.
I pattern my shotguns periodically, since I reload and I have a few guns and chokes. I can hit the big dot (okay last time I painted a big cartoon picture of a cat with a rattlecan to get some laughs at the trap range) just fine, with a 51" long, 8.5 lb. trap gun, just by using the bead, at 30 yards, offhand, standing. It is harder to hold a beast like that steady for a long time; that's why turkey guns are generally more than a pound lighter and a foot or more shorter.
Realistically, a deer "shotgun" isn't really a shotgun, except in Fish and Game law. If something has a rifled barrel, a buttstock, and a single projectile, it is by definition a rifle. Being a rifle, it is best shot like a rifle. Of course a .22 is a good training tool for rifle shooting.
3. They can't resist the temptation to hang one more doo-hickey on their shotgun.
That's my favorite!
Mr. Brister himself on the first page of Chapter 1 says "...a Daisy Model 99 BB gun with its sights removed...."
The goal is to focus on the moving target and bring the bbl to a point where shot and target will meet. That would be hard to do while focusing on rear site nestled in a front site; aiming.
That's my favorite!
Mr. Brister himself on the first page of Chapter 1 says "...a Daisy Model 99 BB gun with its sights removed...."
The goal is to focus on the moving target and bring the bbl to a point where shot and target will meet. That would be hard to do while focusing on rear site nestled in a front site; aiming.
Allright, thanks a lot for the replies. That is what I figured.
Second question (related so I figured why start a whole new thread), would learning to shoot a shotgun make it harder to learn to shoot a rifle well in the future?
Second question (related so I figured why start a whole new thread), would learning to shoot a shotgun make it harder to learn to shoot a rifle well in the future?
I have 2 answers to your question, depending on how I take it.
If a person is new to shotgun sports and has a background in rifles, then yes, experience with a .22 would be helpful. It establishes the basics of long gun handling; gets the person used to holding something like a shotgun. This was me 2 months ago. I took to clay sports quite quickly, busting clays easily my first time out even though I had never touched a shotgun before (got myself an instructor too). If a person is new to guns overall then I might also recommend that they spend a day with a .22.
If a person is already started in shotgun sports, then no, I don't think going to a .22 would help anything. If a person wants to practice shotgun skills, then they should use a shotgun. I've learned that the shotgun is a whole other animal compared to rifles (part of it's allure to me actually), so I can't see practicing with a rifle to help much. Rifles encourage patience and thought. Shotguns you can't think, you see a target and you go for it because you don't have a lot of time. When I shoot a rifle, I aim and pull a trigger and see my sights for the entire shot, up until I hear the plink off of my steel target. With a shotgun, the whole gun seems to just disappear when I see a clay, then the clay mystically explodes. When I think about and aim at a clay, I'm more likely to miss.
Then again, if you can hit the clay with the .22, then it's good practice.
If a person is new to shotgun sports and has a background in rifles, then yes, experience with a .22 would be helpful. It establishes the basics of long gun handling; gets the person used to holding something like a shotgun. This was me 2 months ago. I took to clay sports quite quickly, busting clays easily my first time out even though I had never touched a shotgun before (got myself an instructor too). If a person is new to guns overall then I might also recommend that they spend a day with a .22.
If a person is already started in shotgun sports, then no, I don't think going to a .22 would help anything. If a person wants to practice shotgun skills, then they should use a shotgun. I've learned that the shotgun is a whole other animal compared to rifles (part of it's allure to me actually), so I can't see practicing with a rifle to help much. Rifles encourage patience and thought. Shotguns you can't think, you see a target and you go for it because you don't have a lot of time. When I shoot a rifle, I aim and pull a trigger and see my sights for the entire shot, up until I hear the plink off of my steel target. With a shotgun, the whole gun seems to just disappear when I see a clay, then the clay mystically explodes. When I think about and aim at a clay, I'm more likely to miss.
Then again, if you can hit the clay with the .22, then it's good practice.
arcticap
Member
No IMHO. The NRA "First Steps" basic rifle program does recommend that a kid's first time shooting be with a scoped .22 rifle for the purpose of having a positive first experience, i.e.- so that they can see some positive accuracy results from their first experience and not be disappointed that they can't hit their intended target. This fact alone, should help to reinforce my belief that learning to shoot a .22 shouldn't be detrimental to learning to shoot a shotgun, only beneficial.
Conversely, learning to shoot a shotgun first, while not promoting learning the most accurate rifle shooting techniques, is still better than nothing and certainly, not detrimental IMHO.
A person has to start somewhere. The most basic NRA program starts with a .22 and teaches one how to shoot, period.
Whether you shoot bullets or shotshells from there doesn't really matter, it all depends on the type of sights and type of target, moving or stationary.
Shooting an air rifle at a moving target is an Olympic sport I might add.
Conversely, learning to shoot a shotgun first, while not promoting learning the most accurate rifle shooting techniques, is still better than nothing and certainly, not detrimental IMHO.
A person has to start somewhere. The most basic NRA program starts with a .22 and teaches one how to shoot, period.
Whether you shoot bullets or shotshells from there doesn't really matter, it all depends on the type of sights and type of target, moving or stationary.
Shooting an air rifle at a moving target is an Olympic sport I might add.
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