Shooting Classes? What's To Learn?

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Yeah, I see your point and I didn't like the driving analogy all that much either. The truth is, the vast majority of gun owners don't care about training at all and won't get much, if any, be it formal or informal. This can be seen on this forum, look at the number of posts/threads in the S&T forum vs. any other. Buying and talking about guns and stuff is easy, training is hard.

Having just witnessed my wife taking 2-day defensive handgun class this fall and seeing her skill go from about zero to what it is after was very informative. She is light-years ahead of where she would have been w/o considerable study and practice on her own (that she would never do).

I would recommend every gun owner serious about self-defense attend at least a 2 day high quality training course. If you have to sell a gun(s) or save for a year, or make it your vacation, so be it. After that, they will be able to effectively self-practice and improve their skills and add to them via information products with a firm foundation of "what right looks like" to build upon.

The ammo cost is a wash for someone who shoots regularly because you would shoot those rounds and more anyway on your own throughout the year, you just need 600-1000 at once. If it's local, your added cost is just tuition, if not local then add travel expenses, but no more so than any weekend getaway.

A week-long course is better, but the tuition for those is over $1k, round counts also over 1k and 2+ times the hotel/food cost as for a 2-3 day class. I can totally understand the typical gun owner considering a week at Gunsite out of reach. Heck, I went with free tuition for veterans and I bet it still cost me north of $1500.

I also would bet that top level trainers come within easy driving range of well over 90% of people, just have to check out their schedules. The bread and butter courses are 2 day defensive handgun, easiest to find these. More East coast than West.

This website is a monster of info, but the best single-source listing of training around the country: http://aliastraining.com/

http://aliastraining.com/mikepannone2-daycovertcarry-oct24-252015-southhillva.aspx
 
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Yeah, I see your point and I didn't like the driving analogy all that much either. The truth is, the vast majority of gun owners don't care about training at all and won't get much, if any, be it formal or informal. This can be seen on this forum, look at the number of posts/threads in the S&T forum vs. any other. Buying and talking about guns and stuff is easy, training is hard.

Having just witnessed my wife taking 2-day defensive handgun class this fall and seeing her skill go from about zero to what it is after was very informative. She is light-years ahead of where she would have been w/o considerable study and practice on her own (that she would never do).

I would recommend every gun owner serious about self-defense attend at least a 2 day high quality training course. If you have to sell a gun(s) or save for a year, or make it your vacation, so be it. After that, they will be able to effectively self-practice and improve their skills and add to them via information products with a firm foundation of "what right looks like" to build upon.

The ammo cost is a wash for someone who shoots regularly because you would shoot those rounds and more anyway on your own throughout the year, you just need 600-1000 at once. If it's local, your added cost is just tuition, if not local then add travel expenses, but no more so than any weekend getaway.

A week-long course is better, but the tuition for those is over $1k, round counts also over 1k and 2+ times the hotel/food cost as for a 2-3 day class. I can totally understand the typical gun owner considering a week at Gunsite out of reach. Heck, I went with free tuition for veterans and I bet it still cost me north of $1500.

I also would bet that top level trainers come within easy driving range of well over 90% of people, just have to check out their schedules. The bread and butter courses are 2 day defensive handgun, easiest to find these. More East coast than West.

This website is a monster of info, but the best single-source listing of training around the country: http://aliastraining.com/
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I agree with almost everything you are saying. It is much easier to walking into a gun store or click a button on a website and get a new gun. Training is hard and as you stated it takes time, effort and money. The difference is people see value in the gun in their hand. They don't see value in the training. I think that is what Kathy was trying to get at but I do not think it came through in a convincing manner. I cannot see that blog post causing someone who never considered training to say hey I am not going to buy that new gun I am going to plunk down my vacation $$$ to go to a 2 day training course because it is essential to my being able to shoot a handgun effectively.

I agree 100% that 2 day courses are the bread and butter of the pistol training world. You can get a lot done in that time frame. It will jump you forward in your skills faster than going it alone. If you take what you learn in that intensive environment and build on it you will be ahead of the curve.

I agree a majority of people can drive to a location 3 to 4 hours from home and get good training. 90% might be a bit high but in general with some effort it can be done but when it is not within a short drive you will have to account for the cost of lodging. When attending a 2 day class away from home you are looking at at least a hotel for 2 nights. 3 if you do not want to drive the second day of the class. For many these days that is not something they can do easily. It is not just the $$$ its time away from home and work.

I agree most people can do it but it may take a lot of sacrifices which many are not able or willing to do. Honestly for me personally a good 2 day training course will cost me about $1000 all said and done and that does not count days off of work if needed. I guess that is why I would also find it interesting to see what a persons skills are after 1 year, 2 years and maybe even 3 years after taking a 2 day course. I wonder what percentage of people who attend even high level training continue to train well enough to maintain the skills they learned.

I am a firm believer that if you do not shoot often you loose your skills. If you do not continue to train you will loose skills. So it is not really a one and done sort of thing. As others have said it is a good idea to train annually but then you are not talking about $1000 once you are taking about $1000 a year. That is getting into some serious coin annually or semi-annually. How much is enough and how much is too much.

I just think that for many people the commitment is not there whether they attend formal training or not and that is more at the root of the problem with proficiency than how or with whom one trains.

Alias is a great website but there is 1 course on the schedule for 2015 that is close enough for me to get to.

http://aliastraining.com/kenhackathorn2-daytacticalhandgun-aug29-302015-westpointkentucky.aspx
 
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Posted by Vagunner:
I am a firm believer that if you do not shoot often you loose your skills. If you do not continue to train you will loose skills. So it is not really a one and done sort of thing.
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I strongly agree that the skills are perishable, but I would put it a little differently. If you do not continue to practice the skills learned in training, you will lose them. Those skills include identifying the target; moving to avoid an attack, to avoid hitting bystanders, and to avail oneself of a backstop; drawing; presenting; and shooting, at varying distances and with varying needs for precision.

If one develops bad habits, some refresher training may be indicated.

I'm not sure that all of that practice need be conducted in live fire exercises all the time.

Even when it is, one can take a friend to call out commands and provide coaching and feedback.

The problem that many people face, even if they can and do get to training sessions, is range restrictions afterward, such as prohibition of drawing from a holster, limits on rapid fire, and the constraint of a "square range." But I'm sure that most people can figure out a solution; it may take some driving, but it should be possible.
 
I have gone for upwards of a year with little shooting, I typically only practice 1x per quarter with a few dry-fire sessions in between which isn't much. I'm working on increasing that amount, especially the free at-home dry fire that I have no good excuse not to do regularly.

Though whether someone practices or not after training has nothing to do with training as even with no professional training, practice would be needed to develop and maintain any sort of skill level. The difference is, with training, less practice is needed as your practice will be more productive.

My experience has been that while skills do deteriorate a year after a class, if you actually put in the time to get to unconscious competence in the first place, a pretty high level of skill still remains after long periods of inactivity. Going to training, practicing regularly for a while then falling off the wagon is still way better than never to have gotten the training.

Mere maintenance of skill level in any endeavor can be pretty minimal, like 1x per week dry-fire practice and 1x month a couple hundred rounds would probably more than maintain, probably even slowly improve, a medium skill level.

A 2 day course every other year plus free weekly dry-fire session and 100 rds per month would be a training maintenance cost of only $300-$400/year and training class cost of $500/year ($1k 2 day class total cost, every other year) for a total of about $75/month all-in.

A very efficient training program could get a lot of mileage out of only 100 rounds per session. Another supplement could be airsoft to practice CQB shooting and room clearing at home. Initial cost about $150, then only pennies per shot and this type of training doesn't use much ammo anyway.

An example of an efficient string of fire. Turn around, have a partner set up 3 photo-realistic targets at various distances, 1 with no-weapon. Load a magazine with 2-3 rds. Load a spare full but with random duds (empty brass or snap caps). On your partner's signal, turn, move and engage each threat target with as many rounds as you feel needed, no less than 2 each.

In this one drill of 4-8 rounds or so, you will practice threat ID and target discrimination, drawing while turning and moving, emergency reload, malfunction clearance and that is in addition to rapid-fire marksmanship while moving at varied ranges.

A drill like this would be obviously beyond the skill set of a beginner to do safely or well enough to help, but anyone with 2x 2 day courses who was paying attention could handle it.

With a single 2 day course, I'd eliminate the movement and start a bit simpler working upwards to this.

This is just a random example off the top of my head. Simply loading low varied amounts of rounds in magazines interspersed with duds while running any standard drill will have you practicing reloads and malf. drills almost every string of fire. Draw every string, scan after every string and Tac-reload after every scan...and you are building up massive gun-handling repetitions with minimal round counts every session.

I was taught to think/train this way at the NRA Law Enforcement handgun/shotgun instructor class as the instructors know LE range time and round counts are limited so they taught us to get the most out of it. I've always been an efficiency junky in everything I do, perhaps because I'm lazy? I always want the most result for the least effort...
 
Hmm yeah, I guess it's probably a good idea to get some training. That article about 40% of criminals being trained looks like it was made just for someone like me to read. lol

Btw, how does say, air force basic training compare to that? I was thinking a lot of joining the air force after I graduate.
 
Much of what you know is wrong.

Training can mitigate the Dunning–Kruger effect, which is rampant among the shooting community. The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes.
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So you mean ... drilling holes in stationary paper targets every weekend, reading American Survival Guide monthly, and watching the Walking Dead weekly ... isn't "training." :eek:
 
Please join the military if that is what you want and actually take advantage of the GI Bill and college fund. However, you won't learn anything useful for self defense in the Air Force unless you become an SP or get on one of their Spec. Ops teams.

I hardly learned anything useful in the Ranger Regiment for self-defense on an individual level and it kinda frustrated me, so that drove me to get lots of training on my own, particularly hand to hand combat and with handguns. I certainly learned how to fast-rope out of helicopters and conduct small unit operations as part of a team though. Mostly, I learned how to suck it up while in abject misery, which is a useful and hard to get lesson in and of itself I guess.
 
Simply put, I agree with what Frank Ettin said a while back.

And I like his sig line; it shows maturity and wisdom.
 
In my own personal experience there was a night and day difference between my first few years as a gun owner and shooter being self taught (albeit w/ quite a bit of reading), vs. when I started taking classes. Night and day.

If you haven't taken at least say a 3-day basic handgun class, you are in all probability completely ignorant of what you don't know. This applies to all kinds of groups, not just new shooters (in fact, newer shooters often are very much aware of their own ignorance IME) but also many in LE, people who have "grown up around guns" etc.

I now take about 4 or so classes a year. I think they are fun, which is the big reason why I take as many as I do (but who here doesn't enjoy shooting and learning?), but I also learn something new each class and/or improve on an existing skill, even when I retake a basic class.
 
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The thing is for me most tactical training classes like that wouldn't really apply to me. I already know how to shoot and reload fast.
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I'm not trying to pick on you or call you out specifically, but this is an attitude that I see a lot in the shooting community. I think a lot of the time we get tunnel vision and don't realize even realize it. An individual may already be highly skilled at getting hits on target and keeping bullets in the gun, but there is so much more to training than that, just like there is more to shooting than that. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great if someone has that skill set already, but that's where we need to start asking questions of ourselves. If you can run a handgun like a master class IPSC shooter that's awesome.... But what about eye shotgun that you keep in the closet? Have you been exposed to a couple different reloading and slug change over techniques so that you can decide which one works best for you?

If you have, and maybe you can run the AR15/SKS/AK/Winchester/Mauser just as fast, get your hits, trouble shoot malfunctions, and you can run through a shoot house looking like the love child of Shwarzennegger and Costa. If you can, that's awesome, and I'd love to come shoot with you and get better at it... But what about shooting out to 2, 3, 4, maybe even 500 yards from prone with a sling? You may be a bad bad man in the action bays, but perhaps there would be a benefit from taking something like Appleseed where you just work on the fundamentals and get good at putting small groups in a target really far away?

Even if you ahve reached that point, and the guys you compete with at the range wear green collored hats and have tridents embroidered on thier uniforms, that's still only one part of the training that's out there.

What about what happens up close? Have you thought about doing a little boxing or juijitsu, maybe taking a class from one of the guys doing force on force training?

Training doesn't necessarily have to be combat related. It could include going to a CrossFit box or getting a strength coach so that you can get stronger, faster, and tougher. If you can't swim, that is a pretty big hole in the personal defense skill sets that can be easily as dressed by a competent instructor.

How about after the shots are fired? Training should include first aid, even if it's just the basics, like CPR, tourniquets, and how to keep the bullet hole in your chest that's foaming and bubbling from causing your lungs to collapse.

I think that in general, the shooting community tends to be susceptible to tunnel vision. Sure, the wiz bang tactical classes are a lot of fun, but there are so many more options out there.
 
We`ve all had some type of training over the years.

If someone things "training" is beneficial to them.. So be it......... Did freedom of choice some how disappear?

Folks that "know everything " need not apply. :)
 
Most combat situations for me would probably be for defensive in my own house.
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Quite an assumption, especially considering all the ways and places an aggressor can surprise us.
Situations rarely happen how or where we imagine they will.
Practicing for just a specific scenario can be a regrettable error.
 
Quite an assumption, especially considering all the ways and places an aggressor can surprise us.
Situations rarely happen how we imagine they will.
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And if you are being truthful with yourself situations rarely happen. :what:
 
For those who are reluctant to seek training, due to costs, time and travel, there's another way.
Find someone, preferably a close friend, who is willing (eager) to attend a class.
If possible have them choose a training facility that also supplies accompanying videos to their students about the class.
Then you watch the video before going to the range with your newly trained friend, who (eagerly) shares what they learned.
Don't forget to spring for their ammo and lunch, though.
Seriously, that's how a lot of folks manage to get pretty decent training without actually going to an instructor.
It also fortifies what the friend learned, who took the training.
 
One benefit of training, as we practice the same drills over and over people tend to get sloppy in their habits and in their thinking. "Outside" training whether on a desk or on the range a fresh set of eyes may see mistakes we have been overlooking in the search to correct the problems we have seen.

It doesn't even have to be a paid course, just visiting a different range and finding someone with a different perspective can be beneficial.
 
So I went to an indoor range and watched folks shoot the other day.

One 'gentleman' was there with a Tec-9 ish gun. He would load up the full mag and then empty it at the target (a silhouette) at about 5 yards as fast as he could. How Macho!

The rounds went from head to toe and also half were outside the body outline. Hmm? Can't wait till he defends his house and send 15 rounds into the neighborhood.

He had something to learn.
 
And it's not all about 'shooting.' Sometimes its about NOT shooting:

Q: Well, I'll hazard I can do more damage on my laptop sitting in my pajamas before my first cup of Earl Grey than you can do in a year in the field.

James Bond: Oh, so why do you need me?

Q: Every now and then a trigger has to be pulled.

James Bond: Or not pulled. It's hard to know which in your pajamas.
 
You don't seem to understand the concept, so I will help you a little bit. If you ever have to use a firearm in self defense, you will not get to pick the scenario. It is as simple as that.
 
g.willikers said:
Folks who have never sought training don't know what they don't know.
A comparison might be thinking that driving around a parking lot is preparation for surviving the interstate highways.
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I've been lucky to have taken a couple of classes a year for the past decade. I've learned lots. I'm starting to get into wood working with hand tools. One of the first things I started doing was looking into where I can take classes to learn how.
 
GEM said:
So I went to an indoor range and watched folks shoot the other day.

One 'gentleman' was there with a Tec-9 ish gun. He would load up the full mag and then empty it at the target (a silhouette) at about 5 yards as fast as he could. How Macho!

The rounds went from head to toe and also half were outside the body outline. Hmm? Can't wait till he defends his house and send 15 rounds into the neighborhood.

He had something to learn.
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Would you have the same impression of a person who was shooting a fully auto gun? Would you think that that was his home defense weapon and that he'd shoot away on full auto in defense of his house? You know, sometimes blasting away at a target is just about having fun. Training is training, fun is fun. As long as it was safe, don't read too much into it. :)

Plus, even taking slow aimed shots with a Tec-9 will result in head to toe hits. ;)
 
Posted by NoVA Shooter:
...sometimes blasting away at a target is just about having fun. Training is training, fun is fun. As long as it was safe, don't read too much into it.
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If, at 5 yards, the rounds went from head to toe and half were outside the body outline, I think we can reasonably infer that he really is not proficient at defensive shooting.
 
Kleanbore said:
If, at 5 yards, the rounds went from head to toe and half were outside the body outline, I think we can reasonably infer that he really is not proficient at defensive shooting.
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...with a Tec-9 shooting "as fast as he could". ;)

Maybe with a Sig 226, focusing on the target, he's proficient enough.

All I'm saying is that most of us have put a few rounds down range just to see what can be done (possibly with a gun that's not very accurate or easy to shoot), with no thought to training or defensive shooting. Again, if someone is being safe, let's not judge their competency based on what could have been fun 'blast away' shoot.
 
It might be prudent, though, when encountering a spray and pray shooter to retire well out of range, until they run out of ammo.
 
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