Quantcast

shooting consistantly

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Axis II, Dec 22, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Axis II

    Axis II Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2015
    Messages:
    5,970
    looking for some advice. I shoot a savage axis II Heavy barrel 223 and I reload for it and most the times its a tack driver. 5 shots I can cover with a quarter at 100yards. now my issue is I can shoot reloads and it will shoot the 5 in a quarter and sometimes tighter. I got it to shoot the same holes 3 times with fmj reloads. I loaded the same loads again that gave me the tightest groups and couldn't reproduce the super tight groups again.

    soo... what do you rifle guys think the issue is? part of me says it needs to be clean, part of me says it needs to be a little dirty. I have waited 3-4 minutes between shots and shot, chambered and shot and the barrel gets a little warm so I pull the bolt and let it cool down. I shoot about 20-40rds and clean it. its driving me crazy I cant get it to shoot consistently.
     
  2. dc.fireman

    dc.fireman Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2008
    Messages:
    473
    Location:
    Woodbridge, Va.
    This rifle sounds like a candidate for bedding...

    Without being there, you've not given me enough information to tell what is going on - was it warm? Overcast? Windy? Humid? Many, many factors affect consistency.

    Are you shooting metallic/iron sights? Scoped? Is it eye fatigue? Mirage? Loose rings?

    "paint a picture" for us, and tell us the range conditions, and your process - perhaps we can offer some tips, or point you in the correct direction...
     
  3. Axis II

    Axis II Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2015
    Messages:
    5,970
    Caldwell front and rear bag on bench. Scoped 6-18-44, first time was decent day maybe 50degrees next day 40 degrees overcast light wind. I cleaned the rifle really well and fired 2 factory shots to fowl the barrel and fired 3 reloads of fmj-bt in about 3-4 min and each one went through same hole. Walked downrange and back and fired another 3 and all same hole. Crapier weather day did same thing but not one round touched.

    I also get this when shooting v max reloads. One day it's great next day it's bad.
     
  4. NeuseRvrRat

    NeuseRvrRat Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2011
    Messages:
    2,108
    Location:
    Wilmington, NC
    do you pull it out of the stock when you clean it?
     
    PowerG likes this.
  5. dc.fireman

    dc.fireman Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2008
    Messages:
    473
    Location:
    Woodbridge, Va.
    Are you able to post a picture of the 2nd target - the one without the shots touching? In what manner are they dispersed? Vertically? Sideways? 10-4 o'clock?

    I'm not sure that the Savage Axis can be bedded or not - someone more in the know about them can answer that; My advice is to go out again, but this time place a small wind indicator at about 30 yards, and then another at 50 yards. As soon as you fire a shot - see what the flags are doing.

    ETA:

    Video of Savage Axis bedding

    When the flags do the same thing, so should the shot.
     
  6. Rat Robb

    Rat Robb Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2008
    Messages:
    228
    Clean it and make sure your scope rings are tight.

    -Robb
     
  7. NeuseRvrRat

    NeuseRvrRat Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2011
    Messages:
    2,108
    Location:
    Wilmington, NC
    3 round groups don't tell me a whole lot.
     
    horsey300 likes this.
  8. Dog Soldier

    Dog Soldier member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2016
    Messages:
    2,205
    Location:
    S.W. Wyoming
    I expect everyone wants their hunting rifle to place 5 rounds under an inch. This of course comes from the Bench Rest shooting criteria. The real facts are if a hunting rifle can deliver 2 rounds in a 2" group and you do your part. You will have elk steak for supper.:);)
     
  9. Bart B.

    Bart B. Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2008
    Messages:
    3,162
    Location:
    Colorado
    There's usually a 3 to 5 times multiplier from the smallest 3-shot group to the largest one. The first group being very small is mostly luck. Same if it's the largest

    You'll get a much better (5 times) accuracy assessment of your stuff if you shoot one 15-shot group than five 3-shot ones
     
  10. stringnut

    stringnut Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2014
    Messages:
    438
    Three shot groups are not the best way to go. Usually a 5 shot group will be about 1.5 times larger. Shooting 5 five groups of five shots may give you a better idea of actual grouping ability. Then again if the groups are in different areas of the target it may not give a good indication. Usema piece of paper behind your target. Shoot a group and replace the target aligning as the previuos one was. This will give you individual groups as well as an aggregate of all rounds fired. The aggregate can be very useful in diagnosing issues. You can see if you have stringing of some type or if the group is nice and round. If the group is round that may be the accuracy potential of that load. I have a E R Shaw that 250 Savage that I shot a
    50 shot group with over the course of a week. Somemdays only 2 or 3 were fired and other times more than 10. Never cleaned and some were fired as fast as I could operate the bolt and aim carefully. The group ended up a nice circle just a fuzz over 1.25. This group told me that the bedding and scope mounting was good. It also showed that , if I do my part, any shot fired at 100 yards will land within 5/8 of the aiming point. To me that is a real confidence builder knowing the rifle will perform the same every time. Not sure if any of this helps. Just trying to say you need good data to get good results.
     
  11. Bart B.

    Bart B. Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2008
    Messages:
    3,162
    Location:
    Colorado
    Benchrest shooters accept the fact that their groups will easily have a 5X or more spread in sizes. Their first group is never the smallest nor largest of several shot over a day or two. There's well over a dozen variables that cause bullets to land in the group sizes they produce; about 8 big ones. Some are rifle related, some caused by the ammo and we humans cause the rest. We are never 100% repeatable in how we hold the rifle as bullets go through its barrel and typically have the biggest variables that cause groups to be what they are. So, depending on where each variable is when the bullet leaves the barrel, it'll go where those variables cause it to go.

    If statistical significance is important, here's the credibility different round counts have for any measure; pressure, velocity, accuracy, .....

    3 shot test data can vary as much as 60% less to 250% more of the first one if you shoot 20 of them. Don't count on the first one to have either the biggest or smallest number; they're all random.

    A 5-shot test will have 33% less to 150% more spread than the first one if twenty 5-shot test groups are made. There about twice as good as 3-shot test groups.

    10-shot test, 20% less to 25% more.

    20-shot test, 11% less to 12% more.

    30-shot test, 8% less to 9% more.

    50-shot test, 5% less to 6% more.

    The more shots there are in a single test group, the more it represents the real accuracy that load has.

    How much confidence do you want that some load's numbers are meaningful?

    Stringnut's suggestion of putting a backer target up then several group targets on top of it is a good idea. A good learning tool to grasp the significance of many-shot versus few-shot test groups is to do that with a 22 rimfire at 100 yards. Shoot two boxes (100 rounds) onto the backer target using a new group target on top of it for each few shot groups. Alternately shoot a 3-shot group then a 5-shot one then a 12-shot one on a separate target paper. It's important to place the group targets at the same place relative to the backer target to ensure all groups are shot relative to the same aiming point.

    You'll end up with five 3-shot groups, five 5-shot groups and five 12-shot groups. Plus a 100-shot group on the backer target. Yes, there's a lot of walking involved. Shoot at 50 yards if you wish. 'Tis my opinion that this is the best way to learn that all groups shot with a given rifle and ammo and human are never equal in size.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2016
  12. Axis II

    Axis II Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2015
    Messages:
    5,970
    The scope mounts are tight and its wearing good rings-Burris signature rings with a MOA rail. The gun shoots same POI but sometimes its a tiny little hole and sometimes its larger. Ive become an accuracy nut and when shooting woodchucks at 300yards in a soy bean field a .5inch group-2 inch group could mean a miss or chuck running back to its hole wounded.

    I did the picture attached below with the 3 shot groups 2 times with the same powder, bullet, primer and brass and shot off the same rest. I was also able to reproduce it on another day but then the next time it opened up. when I fired the other groups they would group just touching the black ring. I would like to get into armature long range shooting with this is why I asking for advice. if its something I did, should I order a boyds and bed it, clean or don't clean?

    http://s1030.photobucket.com/user/martpjin2011/media/IMG_0955_zps0uvklfcn.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0 http://s1030.photobucket.com/user/martpjin2011/media/IMG_0953_zpstiselukk.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1
     
  13. Bart B.

    Bart B. Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2008
    Messages:
    3,162
    Location:
    Colorado
    Proper epoxy bedding the receiver in the stock is critical for best accuracy with the rifle. Don't bed the barrel; it has to be clear of the stock fore end by at least 1/16th inch. Read my post #11 for more information. The real accuracy your stuff has is represented by the largest groups shot. Smaller groups happen sometimes, occasionally or once in a great while; never all the time. Remember you're the biggest contributor to good accuracy, or bad.

    Good barrels will shoot 50 to 60 shots with equal accuracy. Then accuracy slowly degrades and you'll need to clean it.
     
  14. Axis II

    Axis II Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2015
    Messages:
    5,970
    thank Bart. Looks like I posted at the same time you did so didn't see your #11 post. :)
     
  15. ACP

    ACP Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2002
    Messages:
    1,334
    Bart B, great advice.
     
  16. ford8nr

    ford8nr Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2011
    Messages:
    1,762
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    I have a Savage Axis in .223
    Before bedding and stiffening the crappy plastic stock my 5 shot 100yd groups could vary from a small of a 1/2" if I was consistent on the front bag placement to a large of 1-1/2" just by not being cognazent of the front bag moving. Stiffening the stock got rid on most of the variables. If I was serious about accuracy in an Axis I would replace the plastic stock .
     
  17. murf

    murf Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2010
    Messages:
    4,532
    Location:
    arizona
    more shooting tips: try free-recoil (shoulder a half inch behind the stock, face off the stock, hands off the stock, pull trigger with finger only), don't cant the rifle, front bag touching stock the same every time (same for rear bag), aim point exactly the same every time, wind exactly the same every time, don't touch the bench with your body (includes elbows).

    ohi, how heavy is your trigger pull?

    luck,

    murf
     
  18. Axis II

    Axis II Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2015
    Messages:
    5,970
    accu trigger turned all the way down. I think 2lbs.
     
  19. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2016
    Messages:
    7,924
    Free recoil doesn't need to be no contact - just not applying pressure. For consistency, most guys make contact.
     
  20. readyeddy

    readyeddy Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2012
    Messages:
    1,588
    Also remove copper fouling with a good solvent like Eliminator Bore Cleaner.
     
  21. Olympus

    Olympus Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,960
     
  22. Bart B.

    Bart B. Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2008
    Messages:
    3,162
    Location:
    Colorado
    Free recoil traditionally means the rifle is "free" of any human contact. It rests on something atop the bench. It is only touched by a finger tip on its very light trigger.

    The more we hold onto the rifle, the more its point of impact changes. Read post #33 in:

    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...own-range-results.815217/page-2#post-10439718
     
  23. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2016
    Messages:
    7,924
    No contact free recoil is great in theory, and works fantastically if your rest and bags are properly tuned. For the other 99.99% of shooting instances, especially if you're in competition stringing shots and need to help the rifle track on the rest (or rather, need to prevent it from jumping too far out and requiring a full reset for your next shot), most guys don't run complete free recoil with no cheek weld and "1/2inch gap between stock and shoulder." For a guy sitting on a bench over a harris bipod, free recoil shooting means REALLY LONG STRINGS, which often would mean really big groups under competition setting.
     
  24. murf

    murf Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2010
    Messages:
    4,532
    Location:
    arizona
    the rifle touching the front and rear bags the same for every shot is important. if your front rest has a fore end stop you may want to set it up and use it.

    you also might want to get another good shooter to have a go. taking the shooter out of the equation would help here.

    murf
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice