Shooting Experience/Tour Legal Requirements

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RedneckExperience

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Hello Community!

I searched this forum multiple times, but could not find anything to help my specific situation. I live in the tourism capital of the world and want to start an off-road adventure/shooting experience.

Essentially, tourists will pay a flat rate to go off-roading for an hour, shooting for an hour, then off-roading again. They will use guns owned by the company and the guide will be by their side at all times ensuring everyone is safe and to instruct proper techniques.

The offroading and shooting will take place in one of two places. A.) Public land where shooting is legal or B.) Private land specifically designated for recreational/shooting use.

Would this be considered a gun rental? Would an FFL be required? This seems like it might be similar to a hunting guide/outfitter.... how do they handle letting people use their guns?

For me, getting an FFL isn't the issue, it is the "rental gun off-premise" clause by the ATF. This would require each group of tourists (many international) to do background checks and extra paperwork. It seems this clause is designed for people who will be renting guns on their own and not necessary with an instructor or guide. I am not renting the gun in the traditional sense because it is all a part of the "redneck experience" that includes other things.

Any advice would be great. Thank you!

Joe
 
First, I would strongly suggest that you retain a lawyer. There will be a lot of detail to deal with, and having your own lawyer working with you sorting those details out can save you a lot of grief down the road.

Among other things you will probably want to document your permission to use private land. A written contract would be a good idea, and having a lawyer do the drafting and negotiating would also be good ideas.

Also many States have special license requirements for anyone who transports others for pay. You'll want to be sure that you comply. And vehicles used to transport paying passengers might be subject to safety and/or inspection requirements.

With regard to the guns, understand that loaning or renting guns would be subject to any state of federal transfer laws. Gun transfer laws generally relate to physical possession, not ownership; so someone shooting your gun has physical possession. Therefore, giving the guy the gun to shoot is a transfer.

The good news is that various States and under federal law, there might be exceptions to any formality requirements for loans or rentals for certain purposes under some circumstances. You'll want to work out with your lawyer exactly what you need to do and how you need to do it to be able to benefit from those exceptions.

But note also that federal law (and many state laws) make it a crime for you to let someone have even temporary, supervised possession of a gun or ammunition if you know or have reasonable grounds to believe the person is prohibited under federal (or state) law from possessing a gun. You will want to work with your lawyer to set up some procedures to reasonably vet your customers and be able to show your due diligence if it turns out that one of your customers is a prohibited person.

And you should understand that in general a foreign national present in this country on a nonimmigrant visa is prohibited under federal law from having even temporary, supervised possession of a gun or ammunition. There are only a few exceptions. The relevant federal law is discussed in this thread and this thread. That's something else you'll want to work with your lawyer on.

It does sound like an interesting business. I know a number of operators have run tours like that in Arizona. My wife has been on a few while I was in Arizona involved with other things, although I was able to joine her on one. It was great fun, but it was also quite a few years ago.

But you do want to pay close attention to the legal details. Getting crosswise with some regulator is an excellent way to bring your business to a screeching halt.
 
^^^ Frank nailed it with his first sentence: You need to hire a lawyer for this. Free legal advice over the internet sounds nifty, but you really need someone on retainer and licensed in your jurisdiction.
 
Frank Ettin said:
First, I would strongly suggest that you retain a lawyer. There will be a lot of detail to deal with, and having your own lawyer working with you sorting those details out can save you a lot of grief down the road.

Among other things you will probably want to document your permission to use private land. A written contract would be a good idea, and having a lawyer do the drafting and negotiating would also be good ideas.

Also many States have special license requirements for anyone who transports others for pay. You'll want to be sure that you comply. And vehicles used to transport paying passengers might be subject to safety and/or inspection requirements.

With regard to the guns, understand that loaning or renting guns would be subject to any state of federal transfer laws. Gun transfer laws generally relate to physical possession, not ownership; so someone shooting your gun has physical possession. Therefore, giving the guy the gun to shoot is a transfer.

The good news is that various States and under federal law, there might be exceptions to any formality requirements for loans or rentals for certain purposes under some circumstances. You'll want to work out with your lawyer exactly what you need to do and how you need to do it to be able to benefit from those exceptions.

But note also that federal law (and many state laws) make it a crime for you to let someone have even temporary, supervised possession of a gun or ammunition if you know or have reasonable grounds to believe the person is prohibited under federal (or state) law from possessing a gun. You will want to work with your lawyer to set up some procedures to reasonably vet your customers and be able to show your due diligence if it turns out that one of your customers is a prohibited person.

And you should understand that in general a foreign national present in this country on a nonimmigrant visa is prohibited under federal law from having even temporary, supervised possession of a gun or ammunition. There are only a few exceptions. The relevant federal law is discussed in this thread and this thread. That's something else you'll want to work with your lawyer on.

It does sound like an interesting business. I know a number of operators have run tours like that in Arizona. My wife has been on a few while I was in Arizona involved with other things, although I was able to joine her on one. It was great fun, but it was also quite a few years ago.

But you do want to pay close attention to the legal details. Getting crosswise with some regulator is an excellent way to bring your business to a screeching halt.
Click to expand...

Thank you! Will look into all of the above. I am in Florida. Already looking to hire a lawyer (luckily i own a few other business and already have a guy I use.... but was hoping for specific information I could relay. It is a complicated scenario and am curious what he says. Thanks again
 
I've got enough friends and family in firearms-related businesses to know that it takes a large critical mass of anticipated revenue to offset the overhead related to legal and insurance expenses. Make sure you have a sound business plan that incorporates all those legal and insurance expenses as well as a marketing plan good enough to get your business up to the critical revenue mass quickly enough to stay afloat.
 
Just an update. I decided to call the ATF directly and speak to an agent. I explained my idea and how it would work. According to the agent, my idea WOULD NOT be considered a gun rental. Because people are paying for an excursion that includes multiple elements and not for the exclusive rental of a firearm, rental regulations would not apply. I would still need to screen each participant similar to a gun range (ever been convicted of a felony, dishonorably discharged, etc), but a background check would not be required. I still have my attorney looking into it to make sure, but I figured calling the ATF directly would make the most sense.
 
^^^Having your attorney get something in writing, that you then file away, for ever and ever and ever, would make even more sense.
 
RedneckExperience said:
Just an update. I decided to call the ATF directly and speak to an agent. I explained my idea and how it would work. .....
Click to expand...

It's important to understand that a telephone call to a regulatory agency is in general not binding on the agency. Among other things: the agent you spoke with is almost never one of the lawyers; there is no written documentation of exactly what information the agent was given upon which to base his responses; there is no written documentation of exactly how the questions were asked; nor is there any written documentation of exactly what the agent's response was.

So while it would, I believe, be reasonable to conclude that you what you're doing would not be considered a rental of a gun, you won't be able to hold the ATF to that based on the telephone call. Another agent or ATF management might see things differently.

Also, note that the agent told you that you will still need to screen your clients to avoid letting a prohibited person have temporary, supervised possession of a gun or ammunition. The classes of persons prohibited from even temporary, supervised possession of a gun or ammunition are set out in 18 USC 922(g). They include: "unlawful users of a controlled substance" which would include users of marijuana even if legal under state law; and nonimmigrant aliens.

While you don't need to do, nor could you do, NICS background checks, you will need some reasonable screen method. Your lawyer should be able to help with a defensible process.
 
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