Shooting Hammers(quick double-taps) w/ 1911: Problem

[elChupacabra!]

Hey guys, I've got a little problem that is irritating me and I was hoping yall could provide some insight.

I spend a good bit of time shooting handguns, from my .22LR pistol through my 9mm SIGPRO SP2022 and HK P2000 in .40S&W up to my .45ACP 1911. I've been shooting handguns for about 3 years or so and have gone through the whole "anticipation / flinching" song and dance for the majority of those years, just now finally bringing it under control by using the Ball & Dummy Drill and doing ALOT of shooting with my .22LR. I can now shoot very accurately in slow-fire, printing 1-2" groups at 10m when I take my time with either my 1911, P2000 or .22 pistol (S&W Model 22A). I shoot Isosceles these days, a convert from Weaver as of several months ago, and love it.

Here's my issue - with my 1911, which is relatively new (I've shot about 500 rounds through it so far and it has a very nice gunsmith-installed C&S trigger breaking at a crisp 4lbs), I can't seem to get very good accuracy when shooting Hammers at, say 7 yards or so. The second shot tends to break low and right (I'm a lefty) - maybe 4-10" low, depending; still a good COM hit, but not where I'm aiming for sure, and I want to improve this.

Now when I shoot controlled pairs or even dedicated pairs, they will be right on top of one another in a nice little 3-4" group at POA, but that's not shooting especially fast - it's "fire, reaquire sights, verify alignment, fire," maybe 1 second splits or something (don't have a shooting timer).

When I up the speed to be a Hammer, I'm definitely doing something wrong, though I can't figure out what. The sights track pretty consistently, and I really don't think I'm flinching, although I suppose I should spend some more time doing it quickly with the old snap caps to verify that. I feel like I've got a pretty good high thumb, neutral grip and isn't shifting when I fire (I don't THINK).

Can anyone shed any light on what I'm doing wrong that's causing this low-right error? Just FYI, when I shoot with the HK P2000, I don't get this error nearly as much, even though that gun has a LEM trigger that pales in comparison to the 1911 and is both lighter and smaller.

Thanks in advance guys.

 

[nalioth]

Can you clarify what you mean by "hammers" here?

 

[rcmodel]

Hammer = Two shots in 1 second or less!

Try this:

http://www.reloadbench.com/pdf/files/TargetRightHanded.pdf

You might be squeezing the gun too hard trying to maintain control for the second shot.

rcmodel

 

[elChupacabra!]

Ah, I'm using the term "Hammer" to define two shots fired in immediate succession with one sight picture. I present the weapon, verify sight alignment and proceed to press the trigger twice without pausing. Although I see the sights rise after the first shot, I don't wait to reacquire them on the target before firing the second shot. This technique is supposed to rely on muscle memory and proper form to direct the second shot at generally the same point of impact as the first shot; it's not going to be surgical accuracy, but it should be in the ballpark, and is a good way to get quick hits at close (within 7 yards) range. I wouldn't be concerned if that wide group was centered around the point of aim, but the fact that it's 2-3" to the right and 4-10" low is what bothers me. The fact that it's much closer with the P2000 really makes me think it has something to do with the way I'm holding / gripping the 1911, but I'm not sure...

 

[elChupacabra!]

rcmodel - I've seen that target, i think I've got one for lefties... My shots are definitely going in the "tightening fingers" / "jerking or slapping trigger" area...

Perhaps the fact that the P2000 with the LEM trigger requires a good bit more pressure (7-8lbs and LOOONG) to fire than the 1911 trigger means I'm overdoing the trigger press in an effort to get it out quickly?

Either way I'm sure practice is what I need, just want to identify my error sooner rather than later so as to avoid ingraining bad habits, which is what I did with my flinch reflex

 

[hankdatank1362]

Controlled pair: Acquire sight picture, one shot, reacquire sight picture, followup shot... as fast as possible

Hammer: acquire sight picture, fire two shots as fast as possible without bothering to try and reacquire sight picture


Both are different methods of double-tapping a target.



I find I have problems shooting hammers in anything .40 S&W - just a little too snappy for the control I like. 9mm, easy, and .45 - well, it just doesn't jump like my P226 .40 does.

Since you said your second shot was going low, maybe you're trying too hard to hold the muzzle down during shooting. Let it snap just a little, and it will settle back down in a matter of tenths of a seconds. Short reset triggers are nice too.

 

[hankdatank1362]

Wait.... by any chance does your 1911 have a flat MSH? If it does, I'd try an arched one.

 

[elChupacabra!]

Hank - the ironic thing is, my Hammers are BEST with my .40 S&W handgun and worse with the 1911, which puzzles me. The fact that the 1911 has a nice, light trigger and short reset makes me think it SHOULD be easier to shoot accurately and quickly, but I'm struggling just a bit modifying my form.

Not sure what to do...

Also to note when I practice Hammers with my .22lr handgun (yes I practice just about everything with .22lr for the cost reasons, even though I'm a reloader ), I don't tend to have this problem, even though it has a trigger similar to my 1911....

Maybe I'm tightening those fingers too much? Does that mean support hand fingers or strong hand fingers, or both?

 

[elChupacabra!]

Hank - Yes, it is a flat MSH... how would an arched MSH help me here? Not sure I know what difference they make...?

 

[hankdatank1362]

Well, and by no means is this definite, but it seems to me that your flat MSH doesn't fill up the bottom half of your palm when gripping the pistol (they don't in my hands).

On your first shot, the extra air doesn't matter, because you took the time to aim. Upon the recoil of the first shot, the pistol tries to settle comfortably in your grip, but because the flat MSH is too small, there is an extra fraction of an inch of travel. When the butt of the pistol finally comes all the way back against your palm, the muzzle is several degrees lower than it was on the first shot, thereby sending your second shot several inches lower than the first.

Basically, I believe that the gun just doesn't fit your hand well. Flat ones don't fit me either; I have pretty big paws.

You ever notice how modern pistol have some sort of swell near the butt of the backstrap? I think this is why. It fills the hand better. Take your right hand, and pretend to grip a pistol. See how much space is taken up by the pad of your hand, underneath the thumb, as opposed to the bottom of your palm?

 

[elChupacabra!]

Hank,

Thats a very interesting observation... I do have the Hogue rubber grips with palm swells on the gun, but those just expand the size on the sides...

That would also make sense as to why my other guns don't seem to give me this problem, as they all are curvier near the bottom of the grip...

So the next question is, is replacing a MSH a simple matter or should I take it to a gunsmith? I'm still new to the 1911 game so not exactly sure what is "DIY" or what requires a professional, but like to err on the safe side.

 

[hankdatank1362]

Me, I'd take it to the smith. Just a couple of punches, should be no big deal... but I can find a way to screw up the simplest of things sometimes.

 

[Grump]

Are you relying on a physical index/feel to know "when" to fire the next shot, or are you just tripping the trigger as fast as you can on the first and only sight picture?

What results do you get with the 1911 when you face the target, close your eyes, and draw? If this test shows that your natural point of aim (NPA) (very flexible and loose with handguns as compared to position rifle shooting with a sling!) is closer to your second shot than the first, then it's probably a gun fit problem with possible solutions as suggested above.

To REALLY test this NPA/Index theory, actually fire a shot with closed eyes. IMO, once you are 100% on an 8-1/2 x 11 sheet of paper at 5 yards or further (7 is best, what I consider max for a hammer as you describe--I'm not a big fan of them beyond 3 yards...), you're ready to distinguish between index/gun fit problems and grip/flinch/trigger mash problems.

Over-controlling the handgun instead of using a neutral grasp can result in depressing the gun on recoil recovery. The operating theory now is to hold the pistol and let it "bounce", for lack of a better term, back to its starting point before firing the next shot. Too fast and the gun's still up, resulting in a high shot. Too slow and you just lose time. Too slow and you're "driving" the gun down gives you a low shot. Just right on the cadence plus flinching (including all forms of it) puts your second shots in your flinch zone.

When I first started this fast stuff with a 4-inch .357, my 7-yard flinch zone was almost exactly 6 inches low at 7 yards. I started aiming at the necks of the bowling pins and hit them all. Separate sight picture for every shot, splits of almost a full second.

 

[elChupacabra!]

Grump -

That's a good question... it could be that I'm pressing the trigger too quickly in an effort to get extra speed. I'm probably pressing as quickly as I do with my .22lr pistol, but of course my recovery with the .22lr is a little faster than it is with the .45ACP 1911.

Honestly I only switched to Isosceles about 3 months ago, and only then did I find I am able to fire Hammers AT ALL - with Weaver, I couldn't get anywhere near an accurate follow-up without a serious flinch. Switching to Isosceles has almost eradicated my flinch (ALMOST), and it was only when I changed my stance that I first found I could really pull off a Hammer at all. So I'm new to this game of REAL speed shooting and may need to adjust the cadence of my firing to match the gun.

Also, is 7m too far to try to do a Hammer? I seem to recall that I should be able to do a Hammer out to 7m or so with Dedicated Pairs taking over out to maybe 15m, beyond which a Controlled Pair is the way to go... but I'm pulling these numbers out of memory, so they may be off. If I'm trying to shoot too fast at a relatively long range, that could certainly be a problem... but it doesn't feel too far, if I can get my technique right.

Also, FWIW, after Hank suggested that an arched MSH might be the answer, I looked up and read this thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-373911.html

With this statement from 1911Tuner:

The purpose of the arched housing was to alter the grip in order to counter the tendency of the average shooter to yhrow his shots low when pointing and shooting in a hurry...like in a fight. In aimed slow-fire, it didn't make a lot of difference. I suspect that a lot of the problem was due to the shooter jerking the trigger and/or anticipating recoil, and pushing the gun.

It greatly depends on your hand. For some people, the arched housing forces their hand up against the grip safety tang, aiding in controlling the muzzle flip. You're probably one of those.

For others, the flat housing directs the recoil more straight back into the axis of the wrist. I'm one of those. For me, the arched housing causes the gun to flip more sharply, and it also causes me to shoot a little high.

I have fairly large hands, but not very "meaty" hands. The arched housing shifts the pistol, and leaves a sort of gap between the web of my hand and the grip safety. With the flat housing, I have a more solid purchase from heel to web.

So this raises the question - if an arched MSH just compensates for an incorrect technique, I want to get to the root and fix the flawed technique.... if, on the other hand, switching MSHs is a matter of build / shooter fit, than maybe it's what I need to do... but I don't want to try to apply an artifical, mechanical fix to an inherant, shooter problem, you know?

What do yall think?

 

[Jim Watson]

I never practice double taps with a .22, it leads to bad recoil control habits.

You could just determine the range at which your hammer will hold the IPSC A zone or the IDPA Zero and go to controlled pairs at any greater range. I have to find the sights for anything more than about 5 yards.

I don't know what you mean by dedicated pairs, sounds to me like some coach is pushing technique a little too precisely.

 

[elChupacabra!]

Jim -

I hadn't considered that, although that certainly seems reasonable.

I was operating under the assumption that any practice was better than no practice, so I used the .22lr to suppliment my centerfire defensive shooting practice... but I see your point.

What's the saying - "practice doesn't make perfect, PERFECT practice makes perfect"? I could be ingraining habits with the .22lr that don't translate well to the 1911...

 

[elChupacabra!]

Jim -

I've heard "Dedicated Pairs" described as in-between Hammers and Controlled Pairs - see the sights between shots but don't give that extra pause to verify perfect alignment... I guess it's a matter of giving yourself a little extra time as range increases.

It might just be a semantics issue as verifying sight alignment is, of course, going to take a hair longer at 15m than at 10m, etc., and doesn't necessarily need to be defined as such.

 

[hankdatank1362]

if, on the other hand, switching MSHs is a matter of build / shooter fit, than maybe it's what I need to do...

Bingo. Same reason all these new fantastic plastic handguns come with interchangable backstraps these days... to better accomodate a wider variety of shooters.