Shooting lead bullets in the Mosin 91/30

[BSA1]

I am looking for other shooter's experience with shooting lead bullets in the MN 91/30 7.62 x 54r.

I recently shot 50 rounds of gas check lead bullets in my MN 91/30. Estimate velocity at 1400 - 1500 fps. It made a mess inside my barrel. This is the most fouled barrel I have ever tried to clean going on three days now.

I first cleaned the lead using Outers Foul Out system which stripped out a lot of lead. The Foul Out now shows the barrel as clean which it is not even close to being. Repeated patches keep coming out black. After soaking overnight I did get the first patch to come out blue indicating copper fouling. After more passes with a bronze brush the patches are black again. I have it soaking again.

All of this leads me to ask if this rifle is compatible with G.S. lead bullets?

 

[Cosmoline]

Apparently not with those bullets! What were the exact specs of the rounds you were using? Who makes them and were they hardcast?

Also, what was your rifle's bore condition? A very ragged bore may create its own problems.

 

[stubbicatt]

From what I hear, you need to cast your bullets waaaaay over bore diameter, and initially you must remove all copper fouling, else the lead strips on the copper, leaving a mess.

I have seen some magnificent M/N bores, but mine is far from magnifique! So I shoot surplus, and clean each day for 3 days to try to leach that grime from the pits in the metal.

 

[ford8nr]

you need to cast your bullets waaaaay over bore diameter

Actually the thought is slug your bore then use the 'appropiate' diameter bullets. The bores (groves) usually run .311 to .313. My bore slug .311 but you can can't fit a .308 bullet down the bore. That being said there was and article in a magazine recently (Rifle Shooter ?) that they fired lead bullets or the 'correct diameter' and .308 copper jacketed for accuracy and there was NO difference. The beat group they shot was with the .308...so go figure. I've got a .308 neck sizer and some empty cases I want to try this on myself.

 

[BSA1]

I am using a 200 gr. G.C. lead bullet sized .312". I thought gas checks were to prevent leading. I don't have a borescope but the barrel does not appear to be in rough condition. I have not been able to find any articles about use of lead bullets in the 91/30.

 

[Catshooter]

Using a bullet without a jacket is very different from using one with.

For the straight answers go here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/index.php and do lots of reading.

The bore on my Finn Mosin is .314 and I use a 222 grain .316 bullet. Zero leading at 1800+ fps, the fastest I've tried so far.


Cat

 

[BSA1]

Catshooter,

What brand of reloading dies are you using?

Although I am using a 200 gr. gas checked lead bullet sized .312" I am also having issues with the Lee reloading dies I have.

Even though I annealed my brass the Lee dies are still resizing the case mouths to .308" +/-. I wonder if I need a different brand of dies that will expand the case mouths larger.

The most interesting thing right now is the amount of copper fouling that was under the lead. The patches keep coming out blue. Although I have had this rifle for years I never shot this gun with jacketed bullets and probably only a 100 gas check lead bullets. Maybe I am trying to get past fouling from military rounds fired decades ago.

Incidently as near as I can tell using a strong light (no borescope) the bore is in very good condition with no pits or roughness.

p.s. Thank you for the link.

 

[BCRider]

Both my surplus Mosins came with a free nasty coating of bore copper that was hellish to remove. I've used up most of a can of the foaming Wipe Out to get them clean. And then I go and shoot a dozen or so rounds of the copper washed mild steel jacket surplus and it takes another two or three overnight "soaks" with the Wipe Out to get the patches back to only mildly blue.

I finally ran a few tight fitting patches down the bore coated in automotive rubbing compound for a one time cleaning to try to polish up the bore a little. I'm pretty sure this would be a similar treatment to using the coarser JB Bore Bright.
This seems to have helped somewhat. But the milsurp ammo still leaves a lot of copper fouling.

As mentioned the fit of the bullets is important. Get a soft lead round ball and slug the bore to find the groove diameter. From there according to my reading over on Cast Boolits you want to run your lead at about .001 to .002 over that size.

You may also need a bigger neck expander for your loading dies. With jacketed it'll push the neck back out. But with lead you run the risk of sizing down the bullet if there's too much neck tension in the casing. And if it swages down the diameter of the bullet you could run into some gas blowby and resulting leading.

You may also just need to bump up the loads a little so the bullet and gas check are forced to obturate out into the grooves more solidly. 1500'ish fps suggests a pretty soft load. Bump it up so it's around 2000 and try a half dozen rounds then see what the bore looks like.

 

[Catshooter]

milsurp,

Two things. First, I'd clean the bore. Sometimes the copper fouling can be making the cast bullet lead. And it can be are real chore getting all the fouling out.

Second, the most important thing in making a cast bullet work is fit. With a rifle there are two areas to try to get good fit. The chamber throat, and then the bore.

Measuring the throat isn't all that easy, especially for your first time. And with a Mosin you're pretty much promised a large throat. So basically, you want to use the biggest bullet that will allow the bolt to close.

I always measure the bore and try to get the bullet from one to three thousandth's over the bore size.

Go over when you can to the Cast Boolits forum and start learning. It's the very best place on the web to learn about casting.

Good luck.


Cat

 

[ThePenguinKnight]

Catshooter,

What brand of reloading dies are you using?

Although I am using a 200 gr. gas checked lead bullet sized .312" I am also having issues with the Lee reloading dies I have.

Even though I annealed my brass the Lee dies are still resizing the case mouths to .308" +/-. I wonder if I need a different brand of dies that will expand the case mouths larger.

The most interesting thing right now is the amount of copper fouling that was under the lead. The patches keep coming out blue. Although I have had this rifle for years I never shot this gun with jacketed bullets and probably only a 100 gas check lead bullets. Maybe I am trying to get past fouling from military rounds fired decades ago.

Incidently as near as I can tell using a strong light (no borescope) the bore is in very good condition with no pits or roughness.

p.s. Thank you for the link.

Lee ships a .308 expander plug with their 7.62x54 dies. You can order a .311 plug for only a few dollars (actually I think you can order just about any size you want). I haven't ventured into shooting very much cast lead yet, and my jacketed loads seat quite nicely with the .308 expander, but I got a .311 plug too, for whenever I get around to it.

 

[Catshooter]

Sorry milsurp, I forgot to answer your question.

I use Hornady. It came with both .308 & .311 expander plugs. Of course I don't use the .308 at all.


Cat

 

[BSA1]

I ordered and installed the larger expander plug from Lee.

I have chamfered the case mouths.

I annealed the brass.

I resized the brass and still getting the .308"+/-.

I talked to Lee Tech who says it is "spring back" which is uncontrollable and normal.

I wonder if I should get a Lyman M resizing die.

 

[Newtire]

Mosin 7.62 x 54

As Catshooter said, go to castboolits and you will get some real good info. I used the Lee .323 sized down (with lube in the grooves to keep the lands from smearing). Sized diameter was .314". Sounds like your bore was coated with junk and you are just getting to the copper fouling underneath. Once you get all the crud out, you should be able to shoot jacketted and cast out of that rifle as long as you clean it regularly and the bore is good to start with. Lots of myths out there concerning cast bullets but that's just because folks aren't doing it right. One thing that will lead a bore quicker than anything I know is an undersized bullet (boolit in "cast boolit talk"-hah hah).