Shooting plated or jacketed bullets out of an old revolver

[Dudemeister]

I'm not sure if this is the right place for this question, or if I should also post it in the reloading section.

For the last few days I've been reloading for my various calibers, and found that the only .38SPl bullets I have are Berry plated 158gr. The are truncated cone semi-wadcutters, and I load them relatively low (2.9-3.0gr of Clay's).

The question is. do you think it's OK to shoot plated or even jacketed bullets out of odl revolvers? IN this particular case, I'd like to put them through an old S&W K38 Masterpiece, and through an old Colt Office's Model Match.

I've shot these before without any issues out of my Dan Wesson and out of a Uberti Cattleman in .357, but these old guns were designed before jacketed bullets.

Any foreseeable issues ??

 

[Captain O]

Unless they were made before 1917 you should be able to shoot "standard pressure" jacketed .38 S&W Special loads. If you do not "hot rod" them, you should be okay.

 

[Old Fuff]

Not to worry. The modest loads you propose won't cause any problems. The word "older" is usually applied to Smith & Wesson or Colt revolvers that were made before the early 1920's.

 

[Dudemeister]

Thanks guys, I'll give them a test run this weekend.

 

[Radagast]

A K38 is a post WWII gun. Heat treatment of cylinders began in 1919, over a million guns were produced during WWII for the USA and British commonwealth, intended to shoot a jacketed load.
Don't try and emulate the old Hi-Speed near .357 magnum loads and you will be fine.

 

[Walkalong]

old S&W K38 Masterpiece, and through an old Colt Office's Model Match.

I have shot plenty of plated through my M14-3 and OMM. Loaded to target velocities.

 

[Archie]

No reason to believe jacketed bullets will have a seriously adverse effect on the bore (rifling). Gilding material is and always has been softer than the steel in the barrels of rifled arms.

With that said, I shoot lead bullets exclusively in my collection of old Smith & Wesson revolvers. Accuracy is excellent and terminal performance of a lead SWC or full WC profile projectile is promising. Besides, lead bullets are normally cheaper.

Still, within proper pressure limits, a jacketed round should not harm anything.

 

[ATAShooter]

I have a S&W police from 1927, and I shoot Rainiers out of it all day long. My bore is near perfect.

 

[Twiki357]

I have S&W revolvers dating back to 1908 that I have fired a lot of X-treme plated bullets through. Just keep the loads mild because those prior to about the 1920/1930’s were not case hardened.

 

[Old Fuff]

I have S&W revolvers dating back to 1908 that I have fired a lot of X-treme plated bullets through. Just keep the loads mild because those prior to about the 1920/1930’s were not case hardened.

Hopefully not. .38 K-frame cylinders were changed to high-carbon steel and heat treated for additional strength in or about 1919 at approximately serial number 316,648. Keep in mind that older parts still in stock were used up and not junked.

You are correct in saying that these older guns should only be fired using so-called "standard loads," or "cowboy action shooting" loads.

Incidentally, even after World War Two, S&W didn't heat treat frames, including Magnum revolvers.

 

[ThomasT]

To me that load sounds too light for jacketed bullets. Speer doesn't even show load data for standard pressure loads with jacketed bullets except for 110 and 125gr jacketed bullets. They show 158gr bullets in +P loads only. You need to be sure that a bullet makes it out of the bore. Lead goes down the bore much easier than jacketed bullets.

Where did you get that load info from and was it recommended for jacketed bullets of that weight? I am all for reloading but there is always a chance of making a mistake. And too light of a load is just as bad as a load that is just a little too hot. Maybe worse.

In one article Gil Sengal of Rifle/Handloader writing on older 38s made the point that older guns have lands and grooves of equal width and displace more lead than the newer rifling with smaller lands and that also raises pressures with hard bullets.

 

[Wildfire]

I agree with Ratshooter.
.38s are common for loading too light. There are warnings about too light and sticking bullets in the barrel. Medium loads are best in .38s.
If you see soot around that cases it is likely too light.

 

[Dudemeister]

Where did you get that load info from and was it recommended for jacketed bullets of that weight? I am all for reloading but there is always a chance of making a mistake. And too light of a load is just as bad as a load that is just a little too hot. Maybe worse.

I got the load data straight from Hodgdon:

According to Berry's, plated bullets should be loaded somewhere in between a jacketed and a lead bullet. So my loads are 2.9gr. The problem with Clays in this particular cartridge is there isn't much of a difference between a starting load and a max load, but I think 2.9gr. should get the thing going pretty decently.

 

[ThomasT]

Sounds good. I'm happy if you're happy. Just check and make sure you see bullet holes in the paper with each shot. A larger than normal cylinder gap can also reduce velocity and pressure. Just about every blown up gun I have seen has been from a handload.

My buddy loaded some lead SWC bullets so weak that they would stick in a wood block like little lead arrows. He had read that the most accurate load was the softest load that would get out of your barrel. I told him there was no way anyone can tell you what the most accurate load is. You have to test your gun to find that out. Just goes to show that there is bad advice floating around so always go by the book. It looks like you are doing that.

 

[Dudemeister]

"Just about every blown up gun I have seen has been from a handload."
Thanks for your concern. I've been loading now for about 5 years, and to this day I haven't had any mishaps (knock on wood).

I have, however, had 2 mishaps with factory ammo. One, a hot 9mm that cracked the frame on my Walther P99, requiring a complete gun replacement by Walther.

The other a hot loaded 22LR that blew the top brace off my Browning BuckMark. Fortunately, this one only required the top brace and the extractor, which also flew off into the darkness.

So, as you can see, there's no guarantee that factory loads are any safer than handloads.

 

[ThomasT]

Yep there are no garantees in life. Even with factory ammo. At least you are not trying to magnumize your loads. Thats one of the first things I have been asked when someone finds out I handload, "how much hotter can I make my loads"? They are surprised when I tell them I load no my powerful than what the factory loads.

I have been loading for 34 years and no mishaps yet. I think I have grown more cautious with time.

 

[Old Fuff]

With obvious exceptions, most experienced handloaders know better then to use high-end loads in older guns. I worry about those dingbats that insist they must - ABSOLUTELY MUST - shoot every gun they get their meat hooks on regardless of age or condition. They also presume that whatever ammunition they have or can get that will go into the chamber(s) is O.K. to fire. Then if something goes wrong it's because the manufacturer made (or still makes) junk. :banghead:

 

[ThomasT]

Old Fuff you are correct. The Gil Sengal article I refered to earlier stated in the article he had seen barrels split because the shooter used very hard lead bullets and after a while the strain of trying to displace the lead with the wide lands of the old guns eventually split the barrel.

I wouldn't have any problem shooting an old gun but you can bet I would do a little research before the first bullet went down the barrel. The only problem is is that I don't have any real old guns. Not like made around the first of the last century.

My buddy has an I frame S&W 32 long and I suggested to him that he stick with lead bullets and lower book loads. For once somebody actually took my advice.

I know someone that has/had an old top break 38 S&W caliber and he couldn't find any proper ammo for it. But he did find that 38 super will chamber and head space on the small rim. And he shoots it. I even shot a cylinder full after I watched him shoot it. I guess the way under sized bullet doesn't develop much pressure but it sure made me nervous.

 

[RevolvingGarbage]

I know someone that has/had an old top break 38 S&W caliber and he couldn't find any proper ammo for it. But he did find that 38 super will chamber and head space on the small rim. And he shoots it. I even shot a cylinder full after I watched him shoot it. I guess the way under sized bullet doesn't develop much pressure but it sure made me nervous.

Yikes. I would be curious how long that gun holds up with that kind of "use". Those .38 supers are above a proof load for a .38s&w top break, and probably jacketed to boot, which is what really beats those old guns up quick.

 

[ThomasT]

RG I have no idea how that gun held up. He use to be a next door neighbor but moved about 100 miles away. I was doing mobile home work at the time and went out to his new MH and installed cement skirting on it.

He was showing me his "New" gun. I watched him from behind a tree when he shot 5 rounds. So I shot five rounds. I guess that .355 bullet wasn't sealing to well in that .361 bore. It still made me nervous. That was about 1988. I was still fairly new to guns but I knew enough to know that this was just wrong. I haven't seen John since that time.

But you know the funny thing was is that the gun was pretty darn accurate with those rounds.

 

[hovercat]

It is my understanding that plated bullets can be treated the same as cast lead for handloading purposes.

 

[Dudemeister]

Here is what Berry's (the bullet manufacturer) has to say about loading their bullets:

"We do not research or publish the load data, but you can use any published load data for a jacketed or lead bullet as long as it is the same weight bullet. Any of the load data books or the powder manufacturers’ website should have that information for you, as long as you keep them under 1250 fps for our standard bullet or 1500fps for the bullets designated as TP (thick plate)."

A while back, they simply said that they can be loaded at pressures between those for a leadcast and jacketed.

As for me, personally, I like to shoot a lot, and shooting full loads gets tiring after a while. Most of my loads are on the lighter side, usually halfway between starting and max loads.

My original concern was not with the load per se, as I've already shot 38SPL factory loads out of it (which are stronger than what I load), my concern had to do with the plated bullet itself, and if it would affect the barrel in any way.

On the other hand, it just dawned on me that I've been shooting jacketed 9mm out of my 1917 Luger for the last 4 years without any adverse effects, so I'm pretty sure these will work just fine.

 

[Dudemeister]

I know someone that has/had an old top break 38 S&W caliber and he couldn't find any proper ammo for it. But he did find that 38 super will chamber and head space on the small rim. And he shoots it. I even shot a cylinder full after I watched him shoot it. I guess the way under sized bullet doesn't develop much pressure but it sure made me nervous.

I also have a couple of old breaktops, an old Spanish made copy of the Smith&wesson, probably made between 1910-1920 in 38S&W, and a 1905-1910 H&R in 32.

Although I bought the brass, bullets and dies for both, I never actually loaded the 38 (other than a dozen dummy/empty bullets for show). I just don't trust the Spanish copy, so it's just a display piece.

The H&R, I loaded a couple of light loads, and shot it, but didn't like the feel, so I then cast and loaded rubber bullets and fired with primers only, just for fun. It actually works quite well. You can punch paper at 20-25 feet. On a couple of occasions I put in pinch (literally) of Trail Boss just to give it a bit of a boost, but that seems to melt and deform the back of the rubber bullet.

BTW, when I say rubber, they aren't really rubber. It's whatever material the glue sticks are made of. I use a hot glue gun to inject the molten material into a mold, and it works perfectly. With the primer only, the back of the bullet is simply singed, but when I used a little powder, the back looked deformed, as if it got partially melted.

 

[ThomasT]

Dude I don't think you have to worry too much about wearing your barrel out with plated bullets. I have some Berrys bullets loaded up myself. From what I have read you will almost never wear a barrel out shooting lead bullets.

 

[joem1945]

I have some OLD guns both rifles and pistols. I reload lighter loads because there is no sense beating up a firearm that can't be replaced or would be too expensive to replace.