Shooting The 165Gr. Sierra BTHP Gameking At 30-30 Velocities

[Dthunter]

I am presently working up a hunting load for a Savage 99EG (30-30 winchester), that I picked up this spring.

I have previously worked up an accurate load using Leverevolution powder and the Sierra 165Grain HPBT. (This is not the match bullet, it is the hunting gameking bullet).


I am able to seat these bullets deep enough to function flawlessly through the rotary magazine, and still have great accuracy.





I have managed to achieve an average velocity of 2365fps. Not to shabby for a 30-30 win and a 165grain Bullet.

My BIG QUESTION/inquiry is this:

Sierra claims the effective initial velocity for reliable expansion with this bullet is in the 2500fps range. They say that this will allow this bullet design to fully mushroom as designed out to approximately 300yds. (308win performance area).

With my velocity of 2365fps, can I expect adequate performance from this bullet at this slightly lower velocity level?

Has anyone tried this combo on deer,black bear, and maybe elk?
Please feel free to share your experiences with this bullet.

My only real concern is reliable expansion between the muzzle and say 250'ish yards.

Why am I trying this?

I enjoy experimenting, and I am trying to see if I can get a more modern bullet design to work for the good old 30-30 winchester.
I have heard a few reports that the 160gr FTX (factory ammo) are comming apart to easily, and this might offer me a more controlled expansion at this velocity level. Those FTX bullets (my own reloads), also shoot very well in my 30-30!

I suppose/realise that its kind of splitting hairs, but I just like trying different bullet styles like this.

I know I can just use the traditional round nosed bullets, but this sierra 165grain BTHP will allow the energies to be a bit higher for the old 30-30 at 200-250'ish yards.

 

[ironworkerwill]

I would definitely keep the shots @200 yds or less. I bet it works fine. You'll likely get good penetration but as it slows it might act more like a FMJ.

 

[Malamute]

The Speer 150 and 170 gr 30-30 bullets have much better than average BC's and are designed for 30-30 velocities.

I might be trying the 150 gr pointy bullets, you can keep velicity up a little better than the 165's.

Are you going to try to tighten those groups up a bit?

 

[jmr40]

I can't say for sure about Sierra, but most bullet manufacturers have a recommended minimum velocity for adequate expansion. I don't load Sierra, but almost all of them are in the neighborhood of around 1800 fps for pointed bullets. Some round nose bullets designed for 30-30 velocities as slow as 1600 fps.

Just looking at their website they do advertise this bullet as being "hard" and that it doesn't expand as well at slower speeds. I can't find anything about minimum impact speeds like other manufacturers list.

According to my calculations you'll be right at 1800 fps at 250 yards. That would be about the limit with most bullets and may be too slow for this one. It'd be borderline at best. You'll still have a bit over 2000 fps at 150 yards and that might be a better limit.

I see Sierra suggests this bullet as being softer and will give better expansion at slower speeds. It has a better BC and I'd think it a better choice among Sierra bullets.

https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/2145/308-dia-165-gr-SBT

It not only gives better expansion, but the better BC gives you an extra 80 fps at 250 yards.

 

[Hopkins]

My experience with that bullet and the 165gr Spitzer BT Gameking agrees with jmr's post. The hollow point is more heavily constructed and slower to expand than the spitzer.

 

[CB900F]

Dthunter;

Seems to me that there are two ways to approach this question. 1. Call Sierra and get their opinion. 2. Do your own expansion tests.

If you opt for #2, I'd construct a box with one cubic foot interior volume, fill it with wet newspaper & set it at 300 yards. I'd probably use 1/2" particle board, fill the box at 300 yards, & not waste too much time shooting. But, the stuff is rigid, no secrets to working with it, and it's no serious impediment to the bullet. It also presents a good constant, unlike wood. Even if the bullet exits the box, the exit hole will give you a good idea of the bullet's performance.

900F

 

[fireman 9731]

An actual test would speak volumes. I would try to get some actual ballistics gelatin to test it though.

 

[BCRider]

There are various calculators online for free or for sale where you can figure out what how fast the bullet is at 300 after starting at 2500fps. With that number you know what the minimum speed is that Sierra is looking for to ensure full expansion.

Assuming this speed is something under your present 2365fps then you can use that same calculator to find the range when your load sees the bullet drop to the same speed as the one that started at 2500fps is moving at 300. The number you get is the distance you can shoot and still expect full expansion.

Another way of looking at it is whatever distance it takes the 2500fps bullet to drop to your 2365fps is how much you have to subtract from Sierra's suggested 300 yard "full expansion" distance.

So don't just guess. Run the numbers through the online calculators to get a better idea of how far out you can reach.

 

[Gtscotty]

A quick jaunt with the Hornady ballistic calculator suggests that that particular bullet, when launched at 2500 fps will hit 2365 fps between 50 and 75 yds (would guesstimate about 60 yds). So if the bullet will expand out to 300 yds when launched at 2500 fps, it should be at the same velocity (~1820 fps) at 240 yds out of your rifle. I didn't actually see on Sierra's site where they said that this bullet would fully expand out to 300 yds when fired at 2500 fps, did they send that to you in response to an inquiry? They do mention that the hpbt is a harder bullet a few times, and refer to the 165 sbt as softer. I agree with the other posters that if I was going to be pushing the low end of these bullets performance envelopes I would focus primarily on the sbt due to its lighter construction and better bc.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I have had a bad experience or two with the Sierra boat tails -- they tend to come apart. Friends have had similar experiences. And Ross Seifried wrote about the problem in Handloader.

I would say if anything, the lower velocity would make that bullet more reliable.

 

[Fremmer]

I hate to say that I wouldn't use them for hunting at that velocity. I'd take Sierra's advice about required minimum velocity. That's a shame because they are so accurate in that rifle.

 

[ironworkerwill]

I ran the calculations for that bullet @ 2350 FPS.http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi 1900FPS at 200 and 1700 at 300.

If it were fired at 2500 fps it would be 2030 and 1820 respectively. So you'll hit the magical 1820 mark with your load between 200 and 225 yds. So safe bet would be to limit shots to 200yds.

 

[Dthunter]

thanks guys! I did those relative velocity comparisons on my long range ballistic app. it looks close but a little under the recommended velocity at 300 for sure.

I will just set up some wet medium and shoot it at 200,250, and 300 yards. That way I will know for sure.

Thanks for the replies! I never worked out the load with the 165 SPBT bullerts because they were longer in profile and I have to seat them so deep.

I could just trim the cases a little to balance the neck/case mouth position on the bullet when seated so deep.

 

[Jim Watson]

A friend said he quit worrying about Sierra boat tails coming apart when he realized he was finding the pieces in dead animals, including elk.

I agree with Gtscotty's logic on range.

 

[Peakbagger46]

For what it's worth, I used that exact bullet in my 308 to take a mulie. It came apart and I had a lot of bloodshot meat. Might work well in the 30-30.

 

[RPRNY]

In my opinion, ie free advice worth as much, these bullets will perform well out to 200 yards and, on whitetail and smaller black bear adequately out to 250 yards. While your initial mv is less than the recommended minimum, at 250 yards you are still within the performance envelope indicated by Sierra. For elk, the 30-30 would not be my preferred choice but there's no reason to believe that bullet and speed combo would fail out to 200 yards with appropriate shot placement. I would probably prefer a softer cup and core bullet in 170 grs and treat 200 as my max.

 

[WestKentucky]

From what I have seen from Sierra, they like to puff things up a bit...as in they tell people to run hotter than necessary to give themselves a little cushion before people start squawking about poor performance. In most cases this works well provided a bullet stays stabilized. For me sierra bullets shot best out of my .270 at the max charge of an older book (over currently published max) but like others have said the bullets came apart. I personally like that as I'm an energy guy (2000 pounds hits deer, stays there, 2000 pounds worth of damage vs 2000 pounds hits and 200 pounds goes out the back side...I digress). My point here is that they state 2500fps initial out to 300 yards is good. My .270 once connected (don't go there) at 600 and did a fine job, exploded at anything short of 200. Either way deer went down. Their realistic number is probably more like 1500 or so at whatever distance. So my suggestion is to do this...build a few rounds and go hunting for something like coyote or fox, even hogs. Try to Shoot one lengthwise and try to recover the bullet. That's a lead on flesh and bone comparison. See what happens.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Sierra claims the effective initial velocity for reliable expansion with this bullet is in the 2500fps range. They say that this will allow this bullet design to fully mushroom as designed out to approximately 300yds. (308win performance area).

Looking at my Ballistics app, a .30 Sierra 165gr BTHP at 2500fps muzzle velocity will have about 1837fps velocity at 300yds. So a 2365fps muzzle velocity would get you somewhere between 225-250yds.

 

[Gtscotty]

I'd be interested to see the results of your wet newspaper test at the different ranges. It looks like your rifle likes this particular bullet, hopefully it works for you. Personally, I really like Sierra bullets for hunting. I use the 165 Sbt out of my 30-06, and have gotten an exit on the 4 deer I've taken with it, even the big doe shot at 25 ft. The SBT's are a little soft, but like WestKentucky, I kind of like that, they really flip the switch off in a hurry. I actually just finished working up a load in my 30-06 for the 180gr SBT for elk this year. I'm fairly confident that if I hit one in the zone, the Sierra will do what I need it to.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Simple!
Get some Hornady 160gr FTX, OR try the Hornady SST. If needed, you can clip the plastic tips.
The FTX for the Marlin .308MX is the one you want. It has a very good reputation with those who have used it in the .308MX. The MX is Hornady/Marlins answer to getting .300Savage performance from Marlin l/a's.
Inside 300yds, boattail bullets are over rated. Personally, I've had superlative performance from the 150 and 170gr Remington Corlokts.
FWIW, I've had excellent luck with with the 165 GameKing.
I'd Sight it +3" at 100yds and go hunting!

Added: Sierra separation? Deer died, and bullet worked! Every deer I shot with Sierra GK's, complete penetration and massive exit wounds.

 

[Art Eatman]

From a years-ago discussion on TFL with a Sierra guy, the 150-grain SPBT seems to be the bullet most likely to come apart at close range and max loading. That says to me that it might be an answer for a MV of some 2,400 ft/sec.