Shot a Mosin for the first time

[1KPerDay]

I recently discovered old ww2 surplus GI bore cleaner is probably the best cleaner so far, (snip)
. the old surplus cleaner only effective at removing soot, you'll still need water or hoppes 9 to remove the corrosive salts.

That's not my understanding. The WWII era GI cleaner is really nasty stuff and removes corrosive salts; that was its design. Probably removes a few hours off your life every time you breathe it or get some on your skin also, but...

I will definitely hose mine down with water or windex and then clean as usual. Thanks for the info and advice!

Just ordered 3 91/30s! Figured they'd be good stocking stuffers for the kids. Better get some longer stockings.

 

[jason41987]

ok, ill say it.. i have a mosin nagant and i hate it.. reasons being surplus isnt that great, factory ammo is expensive, and there isnt much selection in .311" bullets.. also, you tend to shift your body more to operate the bolt since you have to reach further ahead to do so.. and atleast for mine the stripper clips were pretty hit and miss.. it actually suprises me the russians stayed with a rimmed cartridge for so long, considering they tend to do very poorly in anything auto loading, and sometimes bolt actions too

 

[nathan]

The AFghans during the 1980s were using it to snipe at Russians . Then they got AKs after that from us as the CIA ramped up support. Now even some reports say the Taliban snipes are still using these century old rifles to take shot or two if they get the chance on our troops.

Yes, its still being in use in combat today. And the fact remains these 91/30s were from the model 1891s that seen action in WW1. The caliber is hard to beat just like the .3006. Its not super accurate but it will take the job done .

 

[jason41987]

mosin nagants on average are really not that accurate.. people assume that since theyre a bolt action then they must be.. most nagants were slapped together in a hurry for war, most ammo used is old military ammo, about 4 inch groups at 100 with surplus, and 2 inches with hand loads.. really, a good quality AK will shoot about as well

 

[fpgt72]

ok, ill say it.. i have a mosin nagant and i hate it.. reasons being surplus isnt that great, factory ammo is expensive, and there isnt much selection in .311" bullets.. also, you tend to shift your body more to operate the bolt since you have to reach further ahead to do so.. and atleast for mine the stripper clips were pretty hit and miss.. it actually suprises me the russians stayed with a rimmed cartridge for so long, considering they tend to do very poorly in anything auto loading, and sometimes bolt actions too

Some people do not care for military surplus weapons, IIRC the 303 uses a 311 bullet as well. Factory ammo around here is no expensive then other center fire cartridges. I don't understand the shift your body...unless you are a south paw.

As far as the rimmed cartridge feeding, I also have a SVT40 and PSL that shoots the same round and I have never had a feeding issue, actually for me they are very reliable and a total blast to shoot. Those two rifles are some of my most fun to shoot. I do however only shoot modern or my reloads in both of those auto loaders, the cleaning is just too much for me in an automatic rifle to mess with corrosive ammo....same goes for all my auto loaders....I never shoot surplus in them.

 

[WALKERs210]

Last year I was at a local gun shop when the brown truck made a delivery. As the workers were unpacking and getting ready to do paperwork and readying for sale I looked at one of the Mosin's. Asked the price and at the time I was offered it for $108.00 out the door, so I bought it. Not expecting anything but at the price just could not say no. Few weeks later I took it out to my shooting area and put up my target and let one rip. To be perfectly honest and the target proved it I was expecting a serious kick from it and I flinched enough to pull off center by a rather extreme distance. After firing it and recoil was so manageable I began putting shots in the center very easy. Some of the issues I have read about, being after a few rounds the bolt would be difficult to close or accuracy would fade out was not the case with this one. For some reason I sold mine and I have every intention of buying another if for no other reason is I still have quite a few rounds left for it. I remember when I was a young boy around 13 or so in downtown Birmingham was a store that in the basement sales area had racks and racks of K98's for a whopping $49.00. Worked all year trying to save $49.00 but by the time I had it they were gone. Not going to make the same mistake on the Mosin's

 

[caribou]

Think "M-28/30" and "M-39" and you'll be thining about the best As issued Mosin varients known to man.
Prehaps then think of the Sniper variations and Target variations and you have a wide variety to choose from, if your wanting Mosin in perfection....

 

[jason41987]

id probably like my mosin nagant a LOT better if it was chambered in something.. better, i mean, 7.62x54R is only slightly longer than .308, slightly less pressure and overall ballistics are pretty much identicle.. but .308 is so much easier to find.. 7.62x54R ammo is a big problem with the mosins..

as for the bolt sticking.. i had that problem pretty bad when i first got mine.. 5 shots and it was impossibly to operate.. so i completely disassembled the bolt assembly.. didnt even require a special tool to do it either.. boiled the parts in soapy water, dried, then re-oiled and not once have i had the problem since.. gotta get the cosmoline out of it

my stock was soaked in cosmoline too but i bled most of it out.. and the cracked flaky shellac i sanded off, re-stained it with a nice red stain that matched the original beautifully, topped it off with 7-8 coats of tru-oil and a light rub with 0000 steel wool in between coatings and im incredibly happy with the finish.. all markings intact too

still though.. if it wasnt for that damn 7.62x54R cartridge i might actually like it

 

[LAGS]

@ jason 41987
If you handloaded for it, you would like it even more.
I have cases from Winchester, Hanson, Norma, and parvi that I reload.
This can be a very accurate round, and I think superior to the .308 and dang close to the .30-06 even at a lower pressure cartridge.
I actually want to build a 7.62x54 rifle on a British P-14 action but I can not find a Russian machine Gun barrel that is chrome lined to use for the rebarreling.
All other barrels would be .308 bore, and I want to stay with the .310 bore.

 

[jason41987]

i do reload for 7.62x54R, have the same winchester brass you probably have that came pre-primed, biggest pain in the rear i have with it is the lack of really good .311 bullets.. would be nice to find something like a hornady a-max or SST bullet in .311.. but what i typically use now are 174 grain FMJ BT bullets

if youre going to go through all of that to convert a P-14 to 7.62x54R, why not have a newer and most likely higher quality, more accurate barrel made?.. cant you get .310-.311 barrel blanks?

 

[fpgt72]

I am not sure how 54R can be a problem, how it is hard to find. Still the surplus stuff is very inexpensive, and easy to be had. Factory is available and in my area (Kansas city) both Cabelas, Bass Pro, and even one walmart carries it....when they have anything. Online you can find surplus for as low as $4.50 for 20 round box without trying hard and have the spam cans shipped to your door for under $100 for a 440 round can.....that is about as cheap and easy as you can get, the 54R is one of the great selling points of the rifle.

As far as being accurate I think that they are no worse or better over any other 100yr old rifle. Think about that for a second, the most common, most inexpensive, and roughest models are World War II production 1942 to 2013...we are talking about 71 years here....that is a bit of time. Now lets think about how well they are cared for during that war....I would bet there are rifles out there that got cleaned once they got turned in....and then after they got pulled out of the mud and the muck from some soviet battle field 4 days later.

These rifles lead a very rough life. If you can find one that is in good shape it is just as accurate as any other WWII bolt battle rifle.

 

[HexHead]

i do reload for 7.62x54R, have the same winchester brass you probably have that came pre-primed, biggest pain in the rear i have with it is the lack of really good .311 bullets.. would be nice to find something like a hornady a-max or SST bullet in .311.. but what i typically use now are 174 grain FMJ BT bullets

I've seen Sierra MatchKings in .311.


91/30s were sighted in at the factory with the bayonets attached, and are likely to be more accurate with the bayonet.

In the words of a famous Soviet General, "The bullet is foolish, the bayonet wise". Soviet doctrine at the time was that the rifle was to always have the bayonet attached, unless the soldiers were in vehicles. They weren't even issued scabbards.

 

[jason41987]

well, throughout the last century or so it seems the russians kept finding themselves in one war after another with a very, very large population to supply.. its present in everything theyve made over the years.. their tanks throughout wwii were some of the simplest, and easiest to make, though were never the fastest, the most powerful, or the most armored.. german tanks were much better, but a lot more expensive to make which was fine as they had a lower population and needed the better,more expensive stuff to make up for it

i believe the russian planes in WWII were basically plywood, and judging by the actions of the government in charge over this period of time i doubt their "leaders" really gave a damn about the safety of any of their soldiers and basically had a philosophy of throwing everyone they can at a problem whether they had the appropriate tool for the job or not.. granted, their stuffs a lot better now since there hasnt been a big change in firearm technology in the last 60-70 years.. germans invented the assault rifle in the early 40s and there really has been much difference since

but, not to get off topic my point is this.. just because the mosin nagant is a bolt action, dont assume its going to live up to the expectations of what you may assume a bolt action is capable of.. most people i speak to assume theyll pick up a mosin nagant and start hitting half inch groups because its a bolt action.. and nope, not going to do it, not even going to get 1 inch groups, and will be lucky to get 2 inch groups with good ammo

thats not suggesting the design is in any way flawed.. it is a front-locking design with a total of three lugs, they can handle abuse and im fairly certain the 7.62x54R ammo ive made recently is quite a bit hotter than factory or military ammo and it handles it just fine.. with a hell of a fireball though but zero signs of wear or pressure.. the barrel i have has tooling marks on the barrel itself from when it was contoured so you can see it was slapped together with great haste and little care..

so if you were to smooth out some of the tool marks on the bolt, on contact surfaces, and had a NEW .311 barrel contourted to match the original, yeah, .5MOA is quite reasonable, but the way MOST were made theyre just not that impressive

 

[LAGS]

@ Jason41987
The MN round is very accurate, and I have never had a problem finding the .311 bullets and good ones like the Sierra Match Kings
I prefer the 150 gr over the 180's
I want to build the rifle on the P-14 action because it is the Rimmed cartridge version of out Enfield P-17 and one of the strongest actions built.
I can not find a barrel blank in .310 or .311 that is why I want to use the MG barrel.
And the MG barrels are Heavy like a bull barrel, and are chrome lined.
The rifles were originally built bu Col. Jawad Umar back in the 80's and have very good accuracy out past 800 yards.
They are known as "Dangar Rifles"
I want to build one and let my friends that compete in Long Range Competition try it out.

 

[hdbiker]

#44,Mosin Nagant

I found a #44 Mosin Nagant at yard sale last summer. A 1946 built, in pristeen condition, blueing and bore are in as new condition.Not restamped with all matching numbers except stock. Bore slugs at .312.Guy took 75.00 dollars for it. I found a as new sling and 5 new soviet stripper clips at a gun show for 25.00 bucks. So for 100.00 bucks I'm a happy camper. hdbiiker

 

[fpgt72]

well, throughout the last century or so it seems the russians kept finding themselves in one war after another with a very, very large population to supply.. its present in everything theyve made over the years.. their tanks throughout wwii were some of the simplest, and easiest to make, though were never the fastest, the most powerful, or the most armored.. german tanks were much better, but a lot more expensive to make which was fine as they had a lower population and needed the better,more expensive stuff to make up for it

i believe the russian planes in WWII were basically plywood, and judging by the actions of the government in charge over this period of time i doubt their "leaders" really gave a damn about the safety of any of their soldiers and basically had a philosophy of throwing everyone they can at a problem whether they had the appropriate tool for the job or not.. granted, their stuffs a lot better now since there hasnt been a big change in firearm technology in the last 60-70 years.. germans invented the assault rifle in the early 40s and there really has been much difference since

but, not to get off topic my point is this.. just because the mosin nagant is a bolt action, dont assume its going to live up to the expectations of what you may assume a bolt action is capable of.. most people i speak to assume theyll pick up a mosin nagant and start hitting half inch groups because its a bolt action.. and nope, not going to do it, not even going to get 1 inch groups, and will be lucky to get 2 inch groups with good ammo

thats not suggesting the design is in any way flawed.. it is a front-locking design with a total of three lugs, they can handle abuse and im fairly certain the 7.62x54R ammo ive made recently is quite a bit hotter than factory or military ammo and it handles it just fine.. with a hell of a fireball though but zero signs of wear or pressure.. the barrel i have has tooling marks on the barrel itself from when it was contoured so you can see it was slapped together with great haste and little care..

so if you were to smooth out some of the tool marks on the bolt, on contact surfaces, and had a NEW .311 barrel contourted to match the original, yeah, .5MOA is quite reasonable, but the way MOST were made theyre just not that impressive

When using surplus weapons you have to go in with a different mindset. You are shooting history not a modern rifle....to think you are going to get sub MOA is just not realistic...yea it can happen, but don't bank on it, that is not what the rifle was EVER built for.

Personally I use great care in loading for anything that is over a half a century old I find it to be a risky move to load it "quite a bit hotter" but that is you.

The rifles in this class are what they are....old military rifles that came out of a warehouse somewhere then sold off. Nothing else is usually done to them, and not much was done to make them any better then when they got put away to never be seen in a great many peoples lifetime.

I enjoy the rifles....all my military hardware.....for what they are....what they did, the history is what talks to me. All those that do this and that to them really just TRY to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Enjoy it for what it is....if you want to but 5 rounds in the same hole you need to go to walmart and spend $300 and you will out shoot most mosins every day of the week and twice on sunday.

 

[Palehorseman]

Re:fpgt72== their tanks throughout wwii were some of the simplest, and easiest to make, though were never the fastest, the most powerful, or the most armored.. german tanks were much better,

Odd, the Soviet T-34 tank is given up as being the most modern and best battle tank of WW2. The Nazis were dumbfounded when they first encountered the subhuman race's T-34, and it destroyed everything the Germans had, while their tank rounds bounced off the T-34 armor.

The later German Tiger tank was a huge lumbering piece of crap which always broke down when most needed. (as in the battle of Kursk)

T-34, Number one tank of all time: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=dce_1271264917

 

[jason41987]

fpgt, that was my point though, many people expect since its a bolt action that theyre going to get something theyre not, and if accuracy is something someone thinks theyre going to get, they MIGHT get lucky and get an accurate mosin nagant, but its unlikely

 

[LAGS]

The Mosin Nagants have become the Latest Cheap Mil Surp craze over the past ten years since the decline of Russia.
I remember these rifles as a kid, and my dads friends having them that they brought back from the Korean war, then the rifles some of my friends brought back from Viet Nam.
Back then, you could hardly find ammo for them, but I bought my first one in 1976 anyway.
They are what they are, Mil Surp shooters, and right now Cheap to shoot for a Big Bore rifle.
But many will continue to use them for a platform to build range toys or an ocassional Custom Rifle.
I think everone should have at least one, but not as a collector Piece, but just as a link in the international evolution of military firearms design.
Right now they are plentiful, and reasonably priced.
But you really cant knock a design that served and is still being used around the world for over 100 years.

 

[nathan]

Amazing they have been around for a long time and the prices remain the same. Most likely the numbers sold in the USA has passed the 1 million mark . These bolt rifles are as cheap as eating at a Chinese buffet. American shooters love a cheap budget gun that dont break the bank . You get more for your buck . What s not to like....

 

[lencac]

I've had my fair share of Mosin Nagants, 91/30. M38, M44, M39. The M39 is the cream of the crop as far as accuracy and overall quality. 91/30's are capable of generating some very high muzzle velocities due to the barrel length if you use a relatively slow powder. M38's are by far the most wieldy. M44 are probably the least used and can be found in new or near new condition.
Mosins are not the most accurate or the highest quality or best looking but they are reliable, powerful and I wouldn't stand in front of one.
Nevertheless, I still like them as my latest 91/30 project will attest.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=735560

 

[jason41987]

my mosin is an M38.. i actually wanted one a bit shorter and a bit lighter.. M44 and 91/30 weigh about the same so i went M38.. not disappointed in the way it handles.. the massive fireball out the end of the barrel in the evening kind of freaks people out though

 

[danweasel]

Mmmmm Mosin. Too bad I lost my front sight post.

Yeah, that's right,

 

[KSCCHTrainer]

id probably like my mosin nagant a LOT better if it was chambered in something.. better, i mean, 7.62x54R is only slightly longer than .308, slightly less pressure and overall ballistics are pretty much identicle.. but .308 is so much easier to find.. 7.62x54R ammo is a big problem with the mosins..-------
still though.. if it wasnt for that damn 7.62x54R cartridge i might actually like it

Jason, you might want to do a bit more real research on that 7.62 X 54R cartridge. It was designed in 1891, is still in use today so it's the longest, continuous serving, military cartridge in the world.

As for ballistics, it is much closer to the 30-06 than .308. In fact, in some cases, with the Bulgarian "heavy ball" 180 grain ammo, it actually retains more energy at 1000 meters than the 30-06 did. Granted the -54R was fired from a bolt gun and the 30-06 comparison was done using the M1 Garand (gas operated).

There are actually reloading books out there that treat the 7.62X54R as having a .308 diameter bullet when, in fact it should be .311 or .312 depending on whether or not your are using jacketed (.311) or lead (.312) bullets. If you reload for it and use .308 diameter bullets, unless you are using one the Finns re-barreled, chances are the groups will look more like a shotgun pattern than a rifle group.

Jim

 

[Ditchtiger]

it actually suprises me the russians stayed with a rimmed cartridge for so long, considering they tend to do very poorly in anything auto loading

My SVT-40 goes through 54r ammo like it's eating candy, rim and all.
No FTF or extract.