Should I expect a Les Baer Custom Carry to run out of the box?

[Mad Magyar]

He said what happens is the gunpowder and the solvent act's as sandpaper and marries the slide to frame.

That logic wouldn't get pass Metal Shop 101...He saying,"I want you to grind the metal to metal so it will mate correctly, I'm not doing it".."Go ahead and waste 10 boxes of ammo on you..." "In the meanwhile, don't call me before that in case you have any problems". To those that have other opinions, great, I just stated mine....
BTW, I don't own a Baer and don't want one even though I could afford it..

 

[EddieNFL]

Statistically 500 round counts are not required. I believe that 200-300round counts are statistically valid. None the less if you are happy with 500round counts bang away.

Five-hundred rounds is my number. If you're comfortable with less, may the force be with you. I'm going to shoot thousands of rounds through it anyway, so it's not like I'm wasting money. My current carry 1911 has a round count north of 25K.

Isn't there a very old, and IMO true, cliché about statistics?

 

[rellascout]

That logic wouldn't get pass Metal Shop 101...He saying,"I want you to grind the metal to metal so it will mate correctly, I'm not doing it".."Go ahead and waste 10 boxes of ammo on you..." "In the meanwhile, don't call me before that in case you have any problems". To those that have other opinions, great, I just stated mine....

You are entitled to your opinion but your opinion is based on a misrepresentation of what he is saying. He in no way shape or form is telling you not to call him if there is an issue. He is saying that the gun will get better as you shoot it and the parts mate.

How is shooting your gun wasting ammo? My Baer has over 2K through in 2011. The point of owning a gun is too shoot it. YMMV

 

[Rinspeed]

That logic wouldn't get pass Metal Shop 101...He saying,"I want you to grind the metal to metal so it will mate correctly, I'm not doing it".."Go ahead and waste 10 boxes of ammo on you..." "In the meanwhile, don't call me before that in case you have any problems". To those that have other opinions, great, I just stated mine....
BTW, I don't own a Baer and don't want one even though I could afford it..

You obviously know nothing about Les Baers.

 

[EddieNFL]

"In the meanwhile, don't call me before that in case you have any problems".

You're confusing Baer with Kimber.

 

[Hangingrock]

It’s ironic that people buy into the manufactures position that requires firing 500 rounds fired for the proper functionality of the product produced.

On average you are paying between $1900.00/$2500.00. Then you are expected to spend an estimated minimum of $200.00 to guarantee the pistol functions properly.

The manufacturer passes on to the customer what should have been the manufactures responsibility in the first place out of the box functionality.

 

[ExMachina]

I've not got a horse in this race, but I do have to wonder why a $1900 gun would NOT come ready run?

The "break in" concept I understand on a factory assembled gun but when you're paying for a semi-custom/custom gun, why is it considered ok for that not to be included in the assembly? 500 rounds of 45acp ain't chump change.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

I don't buy that gun powder and solvent acts as sandpaper theory...If that rang true and 500 rounds broke the gun in, then how many rounds more would it take till it was basically "broke"?

 

[Balrog]

The manufacturer passes on to the customer what should have been the manufactures responsibility in the first place out of the box functionality.

Ok so what do you suggest?

Should the manufacturer shoot the gun 500 times for you? If so you get a used gun.

Should he build it so that it will function 100% from the first shot? If so, how do you know that is true until you shoot it?

Either way, you have to shoot the gun to at least know it works.

 

[Ed from Maine]

Me, I like to shoot, I was only to happy to go to the range and shoot my P-II, I was practising the whole time, I got better as it went along, what's not to like? I do the same with any gun, I keep a logbook, if I am not shooting it, for whatever reason, I am selling it. Probly time to lock this thread, doesn't seem to be going anywhere good.

 

[rellascout]

I cannot believe the misinformation and misconceptions that are being displayed in this thread. When you buy a brand new car. Lets say something like an Audi R8. You are not going to drive it off the lot and take it to the track without driving it in relatively tame conditions. You are going to drive it a few hundred if not a few thousands miles first. You are going to get used to how it drives. How it responses. How it brakes. How if corners. As you drive it the brakes will bed. The internal parts will become lubricated and be protected under limited stress. This makes sense because by not properly testing the car could cost you your life on the track do to mechanical failure or operator error. Why would you treat a defensive pistol differently?

Just because you did not put yourself in harms way during that initial break in period does not mean that you did not enjoy the drive. It does not mean those miles were wasted. You did not waste the gas, the oil, the rubber on the tires etc.... Shooting my Baer pistol in in the first 500 rounds were just as fun as the last 500.

Those you are arguing against a "break in period" on a Baer are missing the point. 99% of Baers are not going to experience any sort of issues in that inital 500 rounds. They are simply not their best yet. A pistol like a Baer was built to run 25,000 + rounds before a major overhaul and then it is ready to go for another 25,000+ IMHO.

All guns eventually wear themselves to the point of failure. Some simply take longer than others. I know for a lot of shooter 500 rounds seems like a lot. I would be willing to bet there are a not of shooters even on this board that do not put 5000 rounds down rage a year out of all their pistols let alone 1. For those who buy a Baer to shoot a Baer 500 rounds is a drop in the bucket. It is a proper warm up # which makes sense to me.

I put 200 to 500 rounds through every new gun before it is even considered for any form of "serious" work. YMMV

 

[dcmdon]

That logic wouldn't get pass Metal Shop 101...He saying,"I want you to grind the metal to metal so it will mate correctly, I'm not doing it".."Go ahead and waste 10 boxes of ammo on you..." "In the meanwhile, don't call me before that in case you have any problems". To those that have other opinions, great, I just stated mine....
BTW, I don't own a Baer and don't want one even though I could afford it..

Well then you're missing out.

Les Baer builds very snugly fitted pistols. I have owned (and still own) two of them. Both required a good tug to get them out of battery. Both of them have test targets showing groups of less than 2" at 50 yards.

In practical use, they are both startlingly accurate. At a given distance my Glock or M&P may produce a respectable group. In contrast, the Baer at the same distance often rewards me with a single ragged hole.

My Baers are noticeably more accurate than my Nighthawk that I currently own as well as a Wilson I used to own. Both of which cost about 50% more than that Baer.

Incidentally, both Baers (A blued government and a stainless commander) ran flawlessly out of the box. But I still understand Mr. Baer's desire for shooters to break in his guns before trusting them in their defense.

Don

p.s. To those who would disparage Baers, please, go to a gunshop and put your hands on one. The precision is uncanny. There is NO play between the slide and the frame and less than No play between the slide, bushing, and barrel. None. Admittedly, this is not ideal for all situations. Its not a drench it in 30 weight and roll it in dusty middle eastern sand type gun. But for competition or concealed carry they're great. The only reason I own the Nighthawk is that Les Baer no longer makes aluminum framed guns and I wanted a lightweight 4 1/4 inch gun.

 

[newfalguy101]

Personally, if I dropped that kind of coin and it DIDNT run straight out of the box, it would go BACK with a kindly written letter telling tham not to return it till it DID RUN.

NOTE: I didnt bother reading every reply in the thread, I just jumped to the end and hit reply

 

[38 Super Fan]

I cannot believe the misinformation and misconceptions that are being displayed in this thread. When you buy a brand new car. Lets say something like an Audi R8. You are not going to drive it off the lot and take it to the track without driving it in relatively tame conditions. You are going to drive it a few hundred if not a few thousands miles first. You are going to get used to how it drives. How it responses. How it breaks. How if corners. As you drive it the brakes will bed. The internal parts will become lubricated and be protected under limited stress. This makes sense because by not properly testing the car could cost you your life on the track do to mechanical failure or operator error. Why would you treat a defensive pistol differently?

Just because you did not put yourself in harms way during that initial break in period does not mean that you did not enjoy the drive. It does not mean those miles were wasted. You did not waste the gas, the oil, the rubber on the tires etc.... Shooting my Baer pistol in in the first 500 rounds were just as fun as the last 500.

Those you are arguing against a "break in period" on a Baer are missing the point. 99% of Baers are not going to experience any sort of issues in that inital 500 rounds. They are simply not their best yet. A pistol like a Baer was built to run 25,000 + rounds before a major overhaul and then it is ready to go for another 25,000+ IMHO.

All guns eventually wear themselves to the point of failure. Some simply take longer than others. I know for a lot of shooter 500 rounds seems like a lot. I would be willing to bet there are a not of shooters even on this board that do not put 5000 rounds down rage a year out of all their pistols let alone 1. For those who buy a Baer to shoot a Baer 500 rounds is a drop in the bucket. It is a proper warm up # which makes sense to me.

I put 200 to 500 rounds through every new gun before it is even considered for any form of "serioous" work. YMMV

Good post.

 

[newfalguy101]

....but, if you drive that same car off the lot and the brakes quit working, it will go BACK to the lot as soon as you can get it there.

If you hop in to drive it home, turn the key, and nothing happens, the dealership will keep it till it runs.


So I guess the analogy works, sort of, either it works right off the showroom floor or it doesnt.................so why shouldnt we expect guns to work right out of the box??

Now, I also wouldnt take a brand new gun right off the dealers shelf to a match and expect to win, but, I most certianly expect it to WORK

 

[Balrog]

I cannot believe the misinformation and misconceptions that are being displayed in this thread.

I cannot believe that people don't understand the difference between break in and a gun not running properly out of the box.

If a gun chokes every other shot right out of the box, I don't think break in is likely to help it, and you are just wasting ammo til you get it fixed. This is entirely different from "break in" which involves mating of parts that eliminates an occasional jam. It is also entirely different from reliability testing with a certain brand of ammo.

My question is, will a Les Baer run out of the box or is it likely to have to go back to the factory? I am not asking if the gun needs a break in, or if I need to shoot it a certain number of times to make sure it works. The answer to those questions is yes. I am also not asking if I need to shoot it before I carry it for concealed carry.

 

[Skylerbone]

I believe in break-in periods and running anything new before trusting it. I don't agree with labeling something as a "Carry" pistol that is built with such tight tolerances.

I know Baer prides themselves on producing well built, accurate 1911s. Surely they have the ability to produce one with a more forgiving fit. That or don't label it as something it may not be ideally suited for. (I'm not speaking to how it DOES perform, merely questioning whether it ought to be marketed the way it is).

 

[xr1200]

I own a baer premier II and while it is a very well made gun and very accurate, I personally would not carry it for personal defense carry, as the gun is so tight that if you have to rack the slide quick, you may fail to do it properly in an emergency situation.

When I purchased the gun, I was the only one able to operate slide on the gun, out of 4 guys at the shop. The shop owner thought something was wrong with the gun and wanted to send it back and this was on a used baer with 200 rounds thru it.

One thing is that even though it is very tight, it never miss fed in 250 rounds I put thru it and it never got easier to pull back or operate.

In my opinion baer makes their guns too tightly fit in certain areas where they could be easier to operate and just as accurate.

In comparison my premier II is equal in accuarcy to my kimber gold match,Kimber SIS and gold cup 70 series at 25yrds. Differences in accuracy are very negligable

 

[dcmdon]

XR,

My Premier II, that has about 3000 rounds through it has worked in fantastically. Though I bought it for target and local "combat shoot" use, it is now much easier to manually operate the slide.

My Concept VIII (The Commander) has only a few hundred rounds through it and it still has that stick to it that needs to be overcome to manually rack the slide.

It doesn't bother me. I can do it quickly, but my wife had a hard time with it.

Don

p.s. The safety has also worked in nicely on the Premier II. I actually just cleaned it tonight after about 600 rounds with nothing more than a bit of oil added occasionally and it still looks brand new inside. (But boy is that bushing snug)

Nighthawk and Baer Commander Length Guns, with a lightweight Officers ACP on the Botom.


Premier II Government Length


p.p.s. My Nighthawk Custom is a slicker feeling gun. Its nicely rounded and the action, while not any smoother, requires less effort to operate.

In summary, I'd say that I'd trust the Les Baer to function properly when brand new, but would probably want to shoot it enough to make the action easier to operate, prior to carrying it. For range/competition use its nearly perfect. The other weakness that Baers exhibit is that they are traditionally profiled 1911s. in other words they're sharp. Even the guns with their "tactical" dehorning, are sharp compared to my nighthawk.

So for now, my Baer is a range toy/HD gun. My nighthawk, just carries easier, so it comes with me almost every day. And while the Nighthawk is not nearly as accurate as the Baer, its much more accurate than any Glock or M&P I've ever owned. In fact the Nighthawk compares favorably with every semi-auto I've ever owned as far as accuracy is concerned, except for the Baers.

 

[Sunray]

"...require break in?..." No firearm requires breaking in.

 

[MCMXI]

I cannot believe the misinformation and misconceptions that are being displayed in this thread.

No kidding!! Recently, 9mmepiphany posted a link to Hilton Yam's website where he talks about selecting a 1911 for duty use. He states the following:

"You really need to shoot the gun for 1000-1500 rounds, to include about 500 or more rounds with duty ammunition to have a good feel for what the gun is doing. Do not just put "200 flawless rounds" through the gun and declare that it is "completely reliable." That is not a statistically significant cycle of service. You may as well tell a race car driver that his car is good for that 500 mile race after you drive it around the parking lot once. You need to be able to fire 1000-1500 rounds through the gun without any malfunctions. Cleaning and lubrication every 200-400 rounds is an acceptable interval of maintenance while evaluating the weapon for suitability."

This has now become my criterion for convincing myself that a semi-auto handgun is "completely reliable". I have a P220 with more than 15,000 rounds through it, mostly 185gr LSWC reloads that NEVER malfunctions ... I think that one is good to go. My Kimber TEII is rapidly approaching 1,500 trouble-free rounds in matches so will soon get the nod of approval.

And yes, 1911s most certainly do require a break in ... semi-custom ones anyway based on my experience. My Kimber ran great out of the box with factory 230gr FMJ but the slide to frame fit wasn't tight at all. My Ed Brown was so tight that I had quite a few incidents in the first 20 or so rounds where I had to tap the back of the slide to make sure it was in battery. A friend that I shoot rifle and pistol matches with recently bought a Wilson Combat CQB and his son bought an Ed Brown Special Forces. Like my Ed Brown, both guns were very tight and took a few rounds before they started to run properly but it wasn't many. Wilson Combat specifically told my friend not to clean the pistol for 500 rounds.

 

[45crittergitter]

OK, if you have never had a new Baer 1911, then you shouldn't be posting answers here, only questions.

In my experience, a new Baer is so tight you can't open the slide without mechanical help (like the edge of a table), but it will run perfectly on even crappy old standard power reloads with lead SWCs, beginning with the first round, and continue without fail for ~15 years (and counting). The only load that I have found that is not reliable in some Baers is the CCI shot load. It will also shoot exactly to point of aim out of the box, with the load specified to Mr. Baer.

That being said, your experience may vary, and I certainly don't advise trusting it with your life until it has proven itself to your satisfaction, regardless of whose name is on the side.

 

[Hangingrock]

Ok so what do you suggest?

What is your intended purpose/usage/need? Punching holes in paper is a lot different than self-defense.


Colt XSE Govt Model @ 50yds shot traditional off-hand standing position. The Colt is not so tightly fitted as to be a strictly a target pistol. (No I do not shoot groups like this every day @ 50yds but often enough that it’s not a fluke occurrence)


S&W 4506 @ 25yds shot rapid firing standing position. A service grade pistol that has functioned from day one with a round count in excess of 25,000 rounds. No matter the load or bullet style.


Glock 21 with XS-Big Dot sights @ 25yds shot rapid fire standing. No functionality problems at all and no break in period required.

The Colt XSE tends to be more accurate than the S&W and Glock. On the other hand the service grade S&W and Glock have had absolutely no functionality problems out of the box from day one and acceptable accuracy.

 

[Skylerbone]

I think the point being made is don't advertise a Ferrari as the ideal family car. Don't call it a daily driver to an Alaskan. It is what it is whether clothed as a sheep or not.

That is my opinion on the matter and I don't much care for those who would prefer to stifle it as a non Baer owner. I'll bet none of the above posters own a race car yet we discussed them none the less.

 

[Balrog]

This has now become my criterion for convincing myself that a semi-auto handgun is "completely reliable". I have a P220 with more than 15,000 rounds through it, mostly 185gr LSWC reloads that NEVER malfunctions ... I think that one is good to go. My Kimber TEII is rapidly approaching 1,500 trouble-free rounds in matches so will soon get the nod of approval.

I would be worried a gun with 15,000 rounds through it is due for a failure. Have you changed the springs in it? One broken spring could ruin your day and cost you your life. If you have changed the springs, then you better run another 15,000 rounds through it to make sure those springs work right, but when you do, you just have to repeat the spring change and start over again anyway.

Just because you put a certain number of rounds through it, doesn't mean its not going to fail on the next shot.

I think rather than coming up with completely arbitrary numbers regarding reliability, we might all be better off practicing clearing malfunctions, and simply assume that all man made items will eventually fail, generally at the worse possible time, and learn to deal with it.. Even if your gun runs perfectly at the range, there is no guarantee you won't jam it during a real event because of a poor grip or stance.